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I think people can quote verse after verse and you won't budge from your belief. I know, I was there once.
Here is the question....If you had 6 children and 4 of them really didn't live up to your standards, could you toss them into an eternal abyss without any chance of getting out? You spared 2 of them because they followed your ways but the other four...well, they had their chances but blew it.
Simple question. Hopefully you won't dance around it.
Luke 11:13 ->
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Please don't answer well, they didn't ask for the Holy Spirit, remember this
John6:44 ->
No one cancometomeunlesstheFather who sent me draws him.
So answer the question, could you dispose of your own children for all of eternity?
I think people can quote verse after verse and you won't budge from your belief. I know, I was there once.
Here is the question....If you had 6 children and 4 of them really didn't live up to your standards, could you toss them into an eternal abyss without any chance of getting out? You spared 2 of them because they followed your ways but the other four...well, they had their chances but blew it.
Simple question. Hopefully you won't dance around it.
Luke 11:13 ->
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Please don't answer well, they didn't ask for the Holy Spirit, remember this
John6:44 ->
No one cancometomeunlesstheFather who sent me draws him.
So answer the question, could you dispose of your own children for all of eternity?
Only those who have believed in Christ for salvation belong to the family of God. God does not cast His children (believers are sons of God through ADOPTION) into the lake of fire. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation are not a part of the family of God.
Your question is invalid. Only those whose have a righteousness (perfect and absolute) and a life (eternal) can have a relationship with God. No member of the human race has that life or that righteousness unless they believe in Christ for salvation. At that point, God is free to impute both His eternal life and His perfect absolute righteousness to the one who has believed, thereby qualifying him to live in the presence of God forever. Anyone who of his own free will rejects God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ remains under eternal condemnation. We all came into the world ALREADY under eternal condemnation. From the moment of our birth we were already destined for the lake of fire. Because God does not wish for any to perish, He provided the means of salvation in the only way that He could which would not compromise His holiness. All who refuse to come to God through Christ reject the one way that God could offer salvation to them without compromising Who and What He is. They are lost by their own choice. Not God's.
All the arguments, all the objections, all the human viewpoint speculations of those who reject the clear Biblical declaration that those who don't put their faith in Christ for salvation will spend eternity in the lake of fire are in direct opposition to the truth.
The words of Jesus Christ from His own lips.
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment...''
Matthew 7:23 ''And then I wil declare to them, ''I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Unbelievers)
Those who reject these words of Jesus Christ make Him to be a liar.
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment...''
These words are about works not belief - the righteous are the ones who did good deeds
Matthew 7:23 ''And then I wil declare to them, ''I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Unbelievers)
This is talking about those that say Lord, lord - they are the ones that profess Jesus as their Lord --- they are believers, but do not do as he says.
The very ones that you say will be saved but will only lose their rewards -----
In context this is one of the verses that is against "once saved, always saved"
Those who reject these words of Jesus Christ make Him to be a liar.
Only those who have believed in Christ for salvation belong to the family of God. God does not cast His children (believers are sons of God through ADOPTION) into the lake of fire. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation are not a part of the family of God.
So you chose to believe in Him and am saved but your neighbor not so. Hmm...
Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you..."
God is not a respector of persons
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.."
Why would God then choose to save a few but let the rest be damned?
Lastly, how does one find joy in heaven knowing the vast, vast majority are suffering for all of eternity? Brush it off? God will give you amnesia and you won't remember your lost loved ones? They deserve it? Help me out here.
To the contrary. Only believers are righteous. Only believers can do works of righteousness that are acceptable to God. Regarding Matthew 25:41, these are Tribulational survivors. The ones who go into the eternal fire are the goats. The ones on His left. These are unbelievers. The issue regarding unbelievers being thrown into the lake of fire is not their sins, but their works as per Revelation 20:11-15 The unbelievers works are being mentioned in Matthew 25:41. It is by their works that unbelievers are judged. Had they believed in Christ for salvation they would have been saved. Since they didn't believe in Christ for salvation they are condemned on the basis of their works (their human righteousness.) And in the context of Matthew 25:41 their works weren't even righteous by human standards. But the point is that no works of an unbeliever can ever be acceptable to God. Just as no works of a believer that are done in the energy of the flesh can ever be acceptable to God.
Regarding Matthew 7:23, these were unbelievers who had done things in the name of Christ, but they had never believed in Christ for salvation. They depended on their works for salvation instead of depending on the work of Christ for salvation and Jesus said to them, ''I NEVER KNEW YOU.''
The issue in salvation is always belief in Christ versus not believing in Christ. And those who don't believe in Christ by default depend on and are condemned on the basis of their own works. Again, as per Revelation 20:11-15.
Matthew 7:23 ''And then I wil declare to them, ''I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Unbelievers)
This is talking about those that say Lord, lord - they are the ones that profess Jesus as their Lord --- they are believers, but do not do as he says.
The very ones that you say will be saved but will only lose their rewards -----
In context this is one of the verses that is against "once saved, always saved"
They are people who pretend to be believers but are not. The pharisees for example, and some modern day people who claim to be in faith, but never were.
They are people who pretend to be believers but are not. The pharisees for example, and some modern day people who claim to be in faith, but never were.
What I was replying to is that this section of scripture seems to be more about believers and professed believers being judged not worthy for the "kingdom of heaven" and not really about the general fate of the mass of humanity being, by implication only, sentenced to an eternal hell ----- when he just says depart form me.
This is talking about many of those types of people, and from what I can see of those in christianity there are many that believe, and fear, that if they do not believe in Christ that they will be tortured forever in hell. It seems to be more about self preservation than a seeking for truth and what is good.
What I was replying to is that this section of scripture seems to be more about believers and professed believers being judged not worthy for the "kingdom of heaven" and not really about the general fate of the mass of humanity being, by implication only, sentenced to an eternal hell ----- when he just says depart form me.
I understand what you are saying, but this part of the scripture refers to people who thought they were saved, but were not. They thought they were saved because they did the works, by shouting LORD, LORD, and by doing all kinds of things in name of Christ, but they never actually accepted salvation.
The scripture says "I NEVER knew you". If they had been saved at some time, then Jesus would not say that he NEVER knew them, because if that was true, then Jesus would have known them at some point. No, he said he never knew them, because these people NEVER came to him and were never saved.
Sciotamicks... didn't we discuss this before? Jesus mediated a new covenant between God and men.. not Israel or several men or saved men but MEN. Gal. 3:20.
You want to exclude these nonbelievers so badly that it seems you are just making up your own rules here.
No one is making up their own rules but the UR paradigm. Christ is the mediator of the covenant between God and man, who is Israel, His reconciled creation. Anyone entering into that covenant becomes part of Israel. Man must enter into covenant to have his sins washed clean. The scriptures teach this, and this only. Man is not saved, while he professes unbelief in Christ. He is saved upon belief in Christ. His sins were paid for, but man must acknowledge who is his savior to have those sins washed clean. Why is this so difficult? The OT scriptrures teach this, the NT scriptrues teach this...Paul expanded greatly on WHO IS A JEW.
Israel, His people, His creation, the redeemed in Christ.
New Jerusalem, and on and on and on. Everyone on earth is NOT Israel. Only those in Christ. Simple, straightforward and to the point.
1 Tim 4 only speaks of the blessings that are bestowed on the unrighteous BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUS. God is the savior of all mankind, but it is strictly neccessary for mankind to believe in Christ to be saved - an action in part of the man. God is the only God, Christ is the only savior, whether mankind believes or not, that is the message here, and because of the righteous man, living amongst the sinner, sometimes the sinner is blessed due to the saint.
One more verse taken away from the UR paradigm.....any more? It appears that these simple verses are too complex for the UR paradigm.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-16-2010 at 05:48 PM..
Reason: typo
So you chose to believe in Him and am saved but your neighbor not so. Hmm...
Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you..."
John 15:16 ''You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to bear fruit...''
Jesus was speaking to the 12 disciples that He had chosen to be His disciples and who would become the Apostles. This verse has nothing to do with salvation. Compare with Luke 6:13, Matt. 10:2-4 and Mk 3:13-19. Also, John 6:70 and John 13:18.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.."
God draws man through the Gospel. The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer (the unbeliever) so that he may believe. John 6:44 - Unless The Father Draw Him
Quote:
Why would God then choose to save a few but let the rest be damned?
Reread post # 222.
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Lastly, how does one find joy in heaven knowing the vast, vast majority are suffering for all of eternity? Brush it off? God will give you amnesia and you won't remember your lost loved ones? They deserve it? Help me out here.
Revelation 21:3 ''...Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, 4) and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.''
This is God's promise.
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