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That is from Paul's perspective. And Alabama, since you consider yourself UR.....do you believe that post mortem, in the Lake of Fire, the soul is redeemed and has his place next to the righteous saint?
Sciotamicks,
The saviour of all men .......... especially believers, why the believers are especially saved and not the only ones saved is that they have life now.... continuing ...aionian life. They have already passed from death to life ........ whereas those that do not believe while they live, and though they die ...... yet will live.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
The gospel is Jesus death and resurrection. This is the gospel not the words that are used to describe the good news. Judgment is about what we have done (good and evil) All is to be raised in Christ. Not just a part.
It seems that belief is equated with good and righteous and unbelief means evil and wicked but that is not the case.
The wicked servant (both the one who knows his masters will and the one that does not and does things worthy of stripes share the fate of the unbeliever)
Quote:
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Unbelievers and believers are both judged on their own works.
Much is made out of 1 Tim 4:10 by the Universalist who claims that Jesus wil redeem all people whether or not they accept or reject Christ as Savior here on earth. Eventually, UR says, all people will repent (either here or in the after-life, in the Lake of Fire) and come to a saving relationship with God, purified of their sins. 1 Tim 4:10 is used as proof for this premise, among many others that are continously removed from their contextual surroundings. Unfortunately, the verse does not prove what the Universalists hope it does. Can God be called the Savior of all men and yet not redeem all? Yes, He can.
All people are, by nature, born under wrath - Eph 2:3, and should go to hell. Why? Because God is holy and we are sinners. Yet, we have hope in Christ. The Christian is saved by faith Eph 2:8 and will join the Lord in heaven. But, the unbeliever is under judgment. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".
Why does God not simply destroy them as is His right?
Because of the Christians!
Because God is being patient with the unbeliever, allowing them to enjoy the blessings of life in this world without the rightful condemnation of God falling upon them. This is what the Bible states:
Rom 9:22-23What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
As you can see here, God is patient with the unregenerate rebel. They receive a delayed judgment because of God's love for the believer. In this sense, Jesus is the Savior of the world because He holds back His judging hand from all who rightly and immediately deserve it. Judgment is delayed. This is a blessing received from God upon the unbeliever. In fact, God often blesses the unbelieving rebel because of the presence of a believer.
Gen 39:5 And it came about that from the time he made him overseer in his house, and over all that he owned, the Lord blessed the Egyptian’s house on account of Joseph; thus the Lord’s blessing was upon all that he owned, in the house and in the field
Consider also Matt 13:24-30 and the parable of the wheat and the tares. In it Jesus compares the world to a field. He later interprets it by stating that "the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one, - Matt 13:38
Yet in Matt 13:20-30 Jesus states that the tares are not dealt with right away because the wheat is there among them. "But he said, ‘No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest".
So, can it be said that the tares were saved from judgment? Yes...temporarily. The unbeliever enjoys a delayed judgment. But with the Christian, Jesus is especially their Savior and judgment is permanently removed from them.
Another way in which Jesus is the savior of all men is that He has made all people saveable. Without Jesus' sacrifice, none could ever be saved. Since Jesus, who is the word made flesh John 1:1, 14 atoned for sin, all people are now redeemable. He is the Savior of all, but especially of believers.
That is, all are now redeemable due to the sacrifice of Christ, but redemption is specifically applied to those who trust in Christ.
1 Tim 4:10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
1 Tim 4:10 is referring to God in particular and not necessarily Jesus in particular. Does the title "God" include Jesus? Of course, since Jesus is God in flesh Col 2:9, the Savior. God, is called Savior in Psalm 106:21; Isaaih 43:3; Luke 1:47; 1 Tim 1:1;2:3; Titus 1:3-4; and Titus 2:10.
It is obvious that the term refers to God in the generic sense of being the Savior of all men since He brings salvation to all though it is not accepted by all. This is why it says that God (not Jesus) is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. How is it especially to believers? Simple. It is especially and specifically realized only by those who are believers.
Furthermore, only Jesus is the mediator between God and men - 1 Tim 2:5 and He mediates only between the saved and God. He does not mediate His atoning work for the unredeemed.
His being Savior is generic for all, but specific for the saved.
Therefore, this verse does not necessitate that all will be redeemed.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 02-15-2010 at 05:45 PM..
I'm not making the case that salvation is offered beyond death, that is totally the UR arena. I can't make you believe just like those who Jesus addresses on his left. The offer of salvation ends at death.
Which was the point of Jesus' rich man \ Lazarus. Both died, both judged, one in heaven, the other in hell tormented.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
__________________________________________________ __________
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Kat, please don't bother with a counter "yea.....but it doesn't say this or that"...... it does. God's wrath isn't UR.
Again Kat, it's not a puzzle.
Just goes back to kindness toward one another in life. The goats did not do good unto the least of his brethren. Does this mean they are partakers in the same wrath as described here:
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
I don't think God's wrath is UR. I am saying that God's wrath may not be the burning human cesspool that ET imagines. Perhaps it is calamity while still ALIVE and living? Perhaps you reap what you sow on earth during your life and that is God's wrath. After all if eternal life has nothing to do with after death, then how can you say that God's wrath applies to after death?
I think you are assuming that God's wrath equals burning in hell for eternity. In my opinion there is no reason to think that.
I'm not making the case that salvation is offered beyond death, that is totally the UR arena. I can't make you believe just like those who Jesus addresses on his left. The offer of salvation ends at death.
Which was the point of Jesus' rich man \ Lazarus. Both died, both judged, one in heaven, the other in hell tormented.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
__________________________________________________ __________
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Kat, please don't bother with a counter "yea.....but it doesn't say this or that"...... it does. God's wrath isn't UR.
All people are, by nature, born under wrath - Eph 2:3, and should go to hell. Why? Because God is holy and we are sinners. Yet, we have hope in Christ. The Christian is saved by faith Eph 2:8 and will join the Lord in heaven. But, the unbeliever is under judgment. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".
Eph. 2:3 is comparing Jews (under the law) and Gentiles (not under the law) similar to:
Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
and
Galatians 2:15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Right? Jews by nature are under God's wrath because they are God's chosen people isn't that what it is really saying?
Quote:
Why does God not simply destroy them as is His right?
Because of the Christians!
Because God is being patient with the unbeliever, allowing them to enjoy the blessings of life in this world without the rightful condemnation of God falling upon them. This is what the Bible states:
Rom 9:22-23What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
As you can see here, God is patient with the unregenerate rebel. They receive a delayed judgment because of God's love for the believer. In this sense, Jesus is the Savior of the world because He holds back His judging hand from all who rightly and immediately deserve it. Judgment is delayed. This is a blessing received from God upon the unbeliever. In fact, God often blesses the unbelieving rebel because of the presence of a believer.
You seem to miss the part of the passage that says:
"And he did so in order that HE might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory"
God was patient so that he might make known his glory by filling up vessels of mercy with mercy. He prepared the vessels needing mercy beforehand to show his glory by giving them mercy. Therefore your conclusion that he held off because he was giving them another chance so to speak is in error. He held off his wrath in order that sin may increase...
Romans 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more..."
The more grace/mercy God gives the more his glory....
Now you are saying he was patient to give some a chance to repent but don't you believe that there are only a certain amount of predetermined saved anyway? So in light of that what is the purpose of waiting when he already knew it would not add or take away from that predetermined amount of saved people?
Also... Why would the scripture state that he prepared these vessels in need of mercy beforehand if he never intended to give them mercy? Isn't that passage really saying that the end result is mercy for those vessels and not just to give them extra time?
Quote:
Another way in which Jesus is the savior of all men is that He has made all people saveable. Without Jesus' sacrifice, none could ever be saved. Since Jesus, who is the word made flesh John 1:1, 14 atoned for sin, all people are now redeemable. He is the Savior of all, but especially of believers.
What benefit is it to be savable? What good does that do? Is there merit in being savable? I suppose you think man was un-savable?
Quote:
That is, all are now redeemable due to the sacrifice of Christ, but redemption is specifically applied to those who trust in Christ.
1 Tim 4:10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
1 Tim 4:10 is referring to God in particular and not necessarily Jesus in particular. Does the title "God" include Jesus? Of course, since Jesus is God in flesh Col 2:9, the Savior. God, is called Savior in Psalm 106:21; Isaaih 43:3; Luke 1:47; 1 Tim 1:1;2:3; Titus 1:3-4; and Titus 2:10.
It is obvious that the term refers to God in the generic sense of being the Savior of all men since He brings salvation to all though it is not accepted by all. This is why it says that God (not Jesus) is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. How is it especially to believers? Simple. It is especially and specifically realized only by those who are believers.
Furthermore, only Jesus is the mediator between God and men - 1 Tim 2:5 and He mediates only between the saved and God. He does not mediate His atoning work for the unredeemed.
His being Savior is generic for all, but specific for the saved.
Therefore, this verse does not necessitate that all will be redeemed.
God is generic savior to all but "brand name" savior to the saved?
How can someone only come to save the saved?
Do you not see that you are saying that the mediator is between the saved and God, yet God hasn't saved them yet so they are... what? 1/2 saved? How can you be saved when you are saved?
Sciotamicks... didn't we discuss this before? Jesus mediated a new covenant between God and men.. not Israel or several men or saved men but MEN. Gal. 3:20.
You want to exclude these nonbelievers so badly that it seems you are just making up your own rules here.
I'm glad you bring this up. Let's look at what our English word impious means in the Greek:
ἀσεβής -
Basically it means godless, without fear and reverence of God. It does not mean irreligious, but one who actively practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands. Asebḗs is one characterized by immoral and impious behavior.
-Cribbed (stolen) from Robinson's word studies.
Here is each occurrence of this unique word ἀσεβής in the NT:
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;
1Ti 1:9 having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers,
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous man is scarcely saved, the ungodly and sinner--where shall he appear?
2Pe 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
2Pe 3:7 and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.
Jud 1:4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord--Jesus Christ--denying,
Jud 1:15 to do judgment against all, and to convict all their impious ones, concerning all their works of impiety that they did impiously, and concerning all the stiff things that speak against Him did impious sinners.'
Are these the "believers" () within the Christian community you're speaking of? LOL Perhaps they are . They are faithless. Yes, indeed, they do not believe in the God of the bible: Him who justifies the ungodly. A truth well spoken...
The Holy Spirit has declared that Jesus died for the impious. And on those merits alone, God is (present tense) declaring them righteous. They are justified before Him!
Those who do not believe that God is justifying the impious, are not true believers in the God of the Bible. They are not reckoned to righteousness, as yet. Their faith is not in the God of the Bible. They believe in a false god. An idol who does not justify the ungodly. However, the scriptures teach of a true God. A God who is a true Saviour, who saves and justifies the ungodly:
Isa 43:11 I--I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I--I declared, and saved, and proclaimed, And there is no stranger with you, And ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I am God.
Take notice of the above, verse 12. Jehovah God, the true God, (who is not an idol that most believe in) states four things:
1. Jehovah has declared. He declared the impious justified (declared righteous):
Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:
2. Jehovah has saved. He saves the impious by the blood of Jesus on the cross:
Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;
Rom 5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
3. Jehovah has proclaimed. He proclaimed the good news to the impious in the Gospel:
1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,
1Co 15:2 through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,
1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,
1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,
4. Jehovah claims He is God. This is the God of the bible. He is not the god most who claim to be Christian believe in.
Believe in God, not your idols. Believe in Jehovah. Believe in the Gospel.
G764
ἀσεβέω
asebeō
as-eb-eh'-o
From G765; to be (by implication act) impious or wicked: - commit (live, that after should live) ungodly.
G765
ἀσεβής
asebēs
as-eb-ace'
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G4576; irreverent, that is, (by extension) impious or wicked: - ungodly (man).
βλάσφημος
blasphēmos
blas'-fay-mos
From a derivative of G984 and G5345; scurrilous, that is, calumnious (against man), or (specifically) impious (against God): - blasphemer (-mous), railing.
G2319
θεοστυγής
theostugēs
theh-os-too-gace'
From G2316 and the base of G4767; hateful to God, that is, impious: - hater of God.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Rom 4:5 ButG1161 to him that workethG2038 not,G3361 butG1161 believethG4100 onG1909 him that justifiethG1344 theG3588 ungodly,G765 hisG848 faithG4102 is countedG3049 forG1519 righteousness.G1343
I'm going to be very bold this morning and take this thread to the next level. I think it's time to look at this from God's perspective.
The only persons that are reckoned and imputed with Christ righteousness are those that believe in universal redemption. That's right. UR!!! The one's who believe that God justifies the ungodly. And you know what? We're all ungodly. We're all impious. And we're all justified before God based upon what Christ did for us on the cross!
Yep, the UR'ies, the Unies, the ones mocked for being such. They are the ones that believe the Gospel. The Good News! They believe in Jesus and what He did!
Those who believe in ET are not reckoned with Christ's righteousness, as yet. They do no believe that God justifies the ungodly. They do not believe in the Gospel and they do not believe in the true God of the bible. They believe in idols!
Did that flip your tables this morning?...LOL Sorry if I spilled your coffee!!
Just goes back to kindness toward one another in life. The goats did not do good unto the least of his brethren. Does this mean they are partakers in the same wrath as described here:
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
I don't think God's wrath is UR. I am saying that God's wrath may not be the burning human cesspool that ET imagines. Perhaps it is calamity while still ALIVE and living? Perhaps you reap what you sow on earth during your life and that is God's wrath. After all if eternal life has nothing to do with after death, then how can you say that God's wrath applies to after death?
I think you are assuming that God's wrath equals burning in hell for eternity. In my opinion there is no reason to think that.
Kat,
I appreciate that you admit that your position about "burning in hell for eternity. In my opinion there is no reason to think that". It indicates what you're willing to be open to or not.
Rev 14:10, Matthew 25:41, Mark 16:16, John 5:29, John 3:18
(and others like them) have a common theme\application to them. The gospel which brings salvation is offered while a person is on earth, it ends at death...period.
To base eternity on the hope of salvation going beyond life on earth is a different gospel message to unbelievers than what Jesus willing to offer.
I can sense that you're trying to be non-confrontational when you say "I think you are assuming" and I appreciate that. Please understand that when I respond to you it isn't with a intention to demean your conclusions either.
But Kat... not to be redundant, it's not a puzzle.
Kat,
I appreciate that you admit that your position about "burning in hell for eternity. In my opinion there is no reason to think that". It indicates what you're willing to be open to or not.
Rev 14:10, Matthew 25:41, Mark 16:16, John 5:29, John 3:18
(and others like them) have a common theme\application to them. The gospel which brings salvation is offered while a person is on earth, it ends at death...period.
To base eternity on the hope of salvation going beyond life on earth is a different gospel message to unbelievers than what Jesus willing to offer.
I can sense that you're trying to be non-confrontational when you say "I think you are assuming" and I appreciate that. Please understand that when I respond to you it isn't with a intention to demean your conclusions either.
But Kat... not to be redundant, it's not a puzzle.
Twin...
If you truly feel that way then perhaps you should apply that to yourself... I am not dogmatic because it is not clear what happens after death. There is no reason in my mind for God who is all powerful to have rules of engagement.
You are telling me that you believe there is no salvation after death and I say there is no burning after death... so if we cut out after death in the discussion.. we are both left with what happens during life.. still no burning.
Yet as God only has to snap his fingers to create or make something happen it is entirely possible for him to want to save all men and to do it with the simple act of his thought. HE IS GOD. We know from scripture that he desires all men to be saved, sent his only son to save the lost and ungodly... so I simply believe what the bible says.. God WILL save all men. Whether by snapping his fingers or whatever. He will do it. There is nothing to stop him.
His Glory shines when a sinner is forgiven. All sinners will be forgiven. There is no eternal burning.. That is my stance. I don't focus on anything after death..
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) within the Christian community you're speaking of? LOL Perhaps they are 
