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Godwin's law set aside, the Russian smokescreen posters have succeeded in declawing the term 'Nazi'. It's like the word 'racist' to me now. They don't give a flying fig about Jews. Not to mention that Russia has far more and actually horrible Neonazis like the Wagner group. The seditionists claim that Ukraine is governed by the "Nazis" but this is preposterous and has been widely debunked. They still keep repeating it nonetheless. They are like the sheep in Animal Farm.
When people use such politically charged and highly specific descriptors in such a haphazard and disingenuous way, the word eventually loses it's intended meaning.
One of the bots keeps asking why Zelenskyy hasn't declared war. Why hasn't Putin? He is literally the one carrying out an attack on a sovereign nation. Ukraine has done nothing but try to defend itself in their own country, and to evacuate their civilians safely. Russia is killing the evacuating women and children and it is very reminiscent of the scenes we saw from Sarajevo, of people mowed down while standing in a bread line. War criminals.
If the people Russia is supposedly "liberating" in the contested territories act like this, then is it any wonder Ukrainians were having none of it? It has zero to do with Nazism, the seditious minority decided to go with that word because of it's ability to warrant anyone to quickly condemn whoever it is applied to - whether it is accurate or not. So again, the word means little to my ears.
Ruth, have you seen the movie Dangerous Liaisons? I often think of the scene where the Marquise de Meurteuil's reputation among the nobility takes a nosedive, and she is standing in her balcony at the theater as all of society boos and hisses, having learned from Valmont who she really is. It is the last scene before she sits in front of the mirror, and begins to wipe away the facade. Epic performance by Glenn Close, and she should have won the Oscar for this role. As well, the scene where Valmont confronts her before her demise, and he tells her she needs to say but one word. She says the word - it is "war." I haven't seen this film since its theatrical release, but now I'm going to see if I can find a way to watch it again.
I’m Jewish from Ukraine originally (in 90s). I have many friends and relatives in Ukraine and Russia now. (relatives in Russia don’t believe anything is happening in Ukraine now. Just some operation!) It feels that Nazism is a BS excuse. Much worse is a Russian artillery bombing cities, including my Kharkov. Also Ukraine has towns like Uman which is very popular among Israeli religious Jews during high holidays.
It all has little to do with Jews as I've said, and a lot - with Ukrainian nationalists.
It's an American forum so obviously most people are reading it through the lens of Jews. Which is just one of the reasons why it's meaningless here if you are trying to get your viewpoint across.
It's an American forum so obviously most people are reading it through the lens of Jews.
Not only, I think. It's just the whole perception in America that German Nazism was first and utmost about "Holocaust."
But that's absolutely not a case in Russia; there "Nazism" (or Nationalism) is perceived in a different manner.
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Which is just one of the reasons why it's meaningless here if you are trying to get your viewpoint across.
It's not about MY viewpoint.
It's about Ruth who brought her viewpoint across, so I am making her aware ( as many Americans I'm sure) that there is a difference between the perception of what "Nazism" and "Nationalism" are in the eyes of Americans VS in the eyes of the Russians.
And that's where the misunderstanding is coming from, when Russians refer to Ukrainian Nationalists as the "Nazi" and downright "Fascists."
He is. All the reasons Putin has been laying out for attacking Ukraine are nothing but propaganda. It was a weak attempt to justify invading another sovereign nation.
This misses the point. The perpetrators of Nazi violence, including the soldiers, are gone or soon to pass away. There are no "Nazis" left anywhere, except a few in their 80's and 90's who occasionally still get dragged into court in Germany or the US (or both) for past war crimes. But they're not out there leading any movement of any sort. There is no "enemy", if Russia is claiming to clean up Ukraine of Nazis.
And btw, Russia is infamously the home of Neo-Nazi groups who celebrate Hitler's birthday and go around harassing foreign students from the developing world and the occasional Black American embassy staffer, who has the misfortune to cross their path. If Russia's so concerned about Nazis, why don't they clean up the scene at home, first? Who welcomed South Africa's White supremacists to resettle en masse to Russia after their regime came tumbling down?
It's so obviously a phony cover story to justify the war.
This misses the point. The perpetrators of Nazi violence, including the soldiers, are gone or soon to pass away. There are no "Nazis" left anywhere, except a few in their 80's and 90's who occasionally still get dragged into court in Germany and the US for past war crimes. But they're not out there leading any movement of any sort. There is no "enemy", if Russia is claiming to clean up Ukraine of Nazis.
I already explained that for the Russians the word "Nazi" has a somewhat different meaning comparably to what you are used to.
How does the differ from what happened during the Holodomor? The Ukrainians experienced Stalinism first hand. But Ukrainians today don't go around calling Russians "Stalinists." As for Jews ...
Russian antisemitism led to the many pogroms that led to many Jews becoming Bolsheviks. As Bolsheviks they (a proportionally small number) implemented policies that killed millions of Ukrainians. Some of whom - but not substantially the Ukrainian nationalists, at least when it came to killing - turned their garden-variety antisemitism into a hatred of Jews. (As did the Poles but for a different reason.)
"Nazi" has become a slur term that Putin uses in any attempt to connect the past to the current Ukrainian government. It's meaningless and confusing and is straight-out propaganda.
If he must resort to 80 years ago, Putin should be calling the Ukrainian government[al legacy] anti-Polish. But he doesn't because clearly Poland has moved on. As Poles welcome Ukrainians, the ridiculousness of this would become apparent.
As for a tendency towards authoritarianism that no doubt survives in Ukrainian politics like it does in other Eastern European states, Putin only need look to himself. He came from the KGB and retains that mindset.
Authoritians come in many different guises.
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Originally Posted by erasure
I already explained that for the Russians the word "Nazi" has a somewhat different meaning comparably to what you are used to.
Putin - and perhaps others to suit their purposes - has been teaching this for many years. I understand many Russians believe it. Just like some Jews joined the Bolsheviks to defend themselves against an historical enemy. So did some Ukrainians assist the Nazis in a bid to free themselves from the Stalinists.
Nazi is a hate-term. Anyone who uses it other than to identify the wanna-be's who have adopted Nazi ideology is spreading hate - very often for a motivation to suit their purpose. Fascism was found across Europe in the 1930s, with the ideology attracting adherents to oppose Communism. Nazism is but a subset of fascism.
So the question becomes, why are Russians so confused. If the term has a meaning specific to them, they why use it so generically to others where it has an entirely different connotation. Clearly the world thinks it ridiculous. One conclusion is the Putin uses it to sell his policy to the Russian people who did suffer terribly under the Nazis.
You cannot tell me that word is not a dog whistle for them.
Last edited by EveryLady; 03-07-2022 at 01:40 PM..
Not only, I think. It's just the whole perception in America that German Nazism was first and utmost about "Holocaust."
But that's absolutely not a case in Russia; there "Nazism" (or Nationalism) is perceived in a different manner.
It's not about MY viewpoint.
It's about Ruth who brought her viewpoint across, so I am making her aware ( as many Americans I'm sure) that there is a difference between the perception of what "Nazism" and "Nationalism" are in the eyes of Americans VS in the eyes of the Russians.
And that's where the misunderstanding is coming from, when Russians refer to Ukrainian Nationalists as the "Nazi" and downright "Fascists."
I was using "your" in a general sense, not you specifically.
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