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How does the differ from what happened during the Holodomor? The Ukrainians experienced Stalinism first hand. But Ukrainians today don't go around calling Russians "Stalinists."
So did the Russians.
There was no "holodomor" as invented by the Ukrainian propaganda, as in "Russians intentionally killing Ukrainians." It was a brutal suppression/destruction of PEASANTRY in the USSR - Russian and Ukrainian alike ( I have an impression that Stalin hated them all as class.)
The majority of Ukrainians happened to be peasants, since Ukraine are mostly the agrarian lands.
Hence - the result, they suffered the most.
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As for Jews ...
Russian antisemitism led to the many pogroms that led to many Jews becoming Bolsheviks.
Those "pogroms" were in in what's now "Ukraine" and in Moldavia - that part of the Russian Empire, not "Russia proper."
Jews were not allowed to settle in "Russia proper" - only behind the Pale of Settlement in Tzarist Russia, from 1791 to 1917.
The Jewish pogroms you are talking about took place during those years.
And yes, Russia has its share of anti-semitism, as the rest of European countries.
The Jews were not allowed to move to "Russia proper" and take the influential positions in Tzarist Russia, unless converted into the Orthodoxy.
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As Bolsheviks they implemented policies that killed millions of Ukrainians.
My guess is because the majority of them were attacked/murdered by Ukrainians before?
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Some of whom - but not substantially the Ukrainian nationalists - turned their garden-variety antisemitism into a hatred of Jews. (As did the Poles but for a different reason.)
They were all behind the "Pale of Settlement" - Ukrainians and Poles.
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"Nazi" has become a slur term that Putin uses in any attempt to connect the past to the Neo-Nazi types who are found around the world, including in Russia. It's meaningless and confusing and is straight-out propaganda.
Not exactly.
"Nazi" in Russian understanding of the word are the people that kill and torture, that break in the houses and shoot its inhabitants indiscriminately, be that women or children, that burn and loot the houses.
And this was pretty much what Russians observed in Donbass - the looting, the shelling of civilians, the brutal torture of the captured rebel fighters, or ANYONE perceived as "separatists."
The fact that PART of Ukrainian nationalists were professing their love for Hitler's Germany and its insignia, sealed their fate and the broader definition of the "Nazi."
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If he must resort to 80 years ago, Putin should be calling the Ukrainian nationalists Pole-killers.
In all honesty, I haven't even heard of the Volhynia massacre until recently.
And I grew up in Russia and know a great deal of how the WWII was/is perceived there.
As for the rest - Russians perceived Poles during the WWII as riding in the same boat with them. "The racially inferior people" with the rest of the following consequences.
But in this country, it is usually a conversation ender. (If you call somebody a nazi, then you lost the argument.)
I'd say they lost the argument too, they just refuse to see it. None so blind as those who will not see. The mental gymnastics on display in recent posts are of Olympic level - Olga Korbut is jealous.
The year is 2022, the deranged Russian Fuhrer and blood thirsty infected with imperial nazism Russian people started a WWII like total war in the heart of Europe to commit effectively an ethnocide of Ukrainians
and some people believe that Nazism is meaningless to describe Putin' Russia and Russian wars? Surreal. Audio recording of a Russian soldier bragging about the loot he collected in a vip Ukrainian village + footage of the civilian devastation.
The year is 2022, the deranged Russian Fuhrer and blood thirsty infected with imperial nazism Russian people started a WWII like total war in the heart of Europe to commit effectively an ethnocide of Ukrainians
and some people believe that Nazism is meaningless to describe Putin' Russia and Russian wars? Surreal. Audio recording of a Russian soldier bragging about the loot he collected in a vip Ukrainian village + footage of the civilian devastation.
To call them animals would be a great injustice to animals. Those of us who have experienced Russian aggression are not going to be surprised by anything coming out of the war zone.
The year is 2022, the deranged Russian Fuhrer and blood thirsty infected with imperial nazism Russian people started a WWII like total war in the heart of Europe to commit effectively an ethnocide of Ukrainians
and some people believe that Nazism is meaningless to describe Putin' Russia and Russian wars? Surreal. Audio recording of a Russian soldier bragging about the loot he collected in a vip Ukrainian village + footage of the civilian devastation.
"Now the West is saying something like "There were not too many Nationalists, they had only that much influence...
Influence? If not for nationalists that whole thing would have turned into a gay parade.
We now been given so much weaponry, not because as some say "west is helping us" but because we perform the tasks set by the West. Because we are the only ones who are ready to do them. Because we have fun killing and we have fun fighting...
We are the flagman here because we have started a war that has not been seen for 60 years.
So imagine how many weapons we have, how many veterans we have."
(Yes, I am consistent - I like to follow the logical bottom line.)
There was no "holodomor" as invented by the Ukrainian propaganda, as in "Russians intentionally killing Ukrainians." It was a brutal suppression/destruction of PEASANTRY in the USSR - Russian and Ukrainian alike ( I have an impression that Stalin hated them all as class.)
The majority of Ukrainians happened to be peasants, since Ukraine are mostly the agrarian lands.
Hence - the result, they suffered the most.
I understand that fully (the bold). Although it was more than a suppression of peasants (the kulaks). Stalin needed Ukrainian wheat to export for foreign exchange to industrialize the USSR.
From recall (its been years since I've looked at this), the primary Stalinist official who incidentally was Jewish hid the extent of the starvation from Moscow resulting from the need to meet quotas. Ukraine, particularly Eastern Ukraine that contained the richest soils - suffered disproportionally. Which is why Eastern Ukraine is disproportionally ethnic Russian, with Russians subsequently relocated into the region to takeover now vacant areas.
What spurs hate was the end-result to Ukrainians for whom a theoretical Stalinist intent or misapplied policy would be meaningless. To dismiss this as "an invention" does not begin to capture the horror many experienced - and retold to the best of their knowledge.
That is not to say it could not have been propagandized - just like Putin uses history - but it cannot be dismissed as a motivator for subsequent events, which was widespread Ukrainian cooperation with Germans.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Those "pogroms" were in in what's now "Ukraine" and in Moldavia - that part of the Russian Empire, not "Russia proper."
Jews were not allowed to settle in "Russia proper" - only behind the Pale of Settlement in Tzarist Russia, from 1791 to 1917.
The Jewish pogroms you are talking about took place during those years.
And yes, Russia has its share of anti-semitism, as the rest of European countries.
The Jews were not allowed to move to "Russia proper" and take the influential positions in Tzarist Russia, unless converted into the Orthodoxy.
My guess is because the majority of them were attacked/murdered by Ukrainians before?
They were all behind the "Pale of Settlement" - Ukrainians and Poles.
The attraction Bolshevism had for Jews, who as a suppressed people - went beyond pogroms. I used that word too generically as a symbol. The point was that Bolsheviks were disproportionally Jewish - although not the top leadership - a fact not lost on Ukrainians etc. That the Germans exploited - both in their own country and elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Not exactly.
"Nazi" in Russian understanding of the word are the people that kill and torture, that break in the houses and shoot its inhabitants indiscriminately, be that women or children, that burn and loot the houses.
And this was pretty much what Russians observed in Donbass - the looting, the shelling of civilians, the brutal torture of the captured rebel fighters.
The fact that PART of Ukrainian nationalists were professing their love for Hitler's Germany and its insignia, sealed their fate and the broader definition of the "Nazi."
Portions of the Azov Battalion did adopt Nazi ideology. No one disagrees the Ukrainian government needed better control over them. Frankly IDK much about Donbass - only a general understanding there were also Russian separatist militias that were also problematic. Who starts what is difficult to sort. Putin does appear to have been "an actor" here.
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Originally Posted by erasure
In all honesty, I haven't even heard of the Volhynia massacre until recently.
And I grew up in Russia and know a great deal of how the WWII was/is perceived there.
As for the rest - Russians perceived Poles during the WWII as riding in the same boat with them. "The racially inferior people" with the rest of the following consequences.
A lot of history can only be what people are told, otherwise it is lost. With a problem coming when different peoples are given different versions. That then can inflame hate. Since Russians massacred Poles at Katyn it is not a surprise that Banderas (UPA) ethnic cleansing them in 1943-44 was not taught. Poles were fellow Communists, the Ukraine now pacified. All now brothers. Best to quietly move on.
When it comes to why Stepan Bandera is a "hero" to some Ukrainians, what counts is what Ukrainians were taught. How that came about, and why. This is analogous to what the word "Nazi" means to a Russian. What it is code for. Russians - and frankly not without merit - interpret it thru their lens.
I'll mention it another post - because that is the larger point.
If he must resort to 80 years ago, Putin should be calling the Ukrainian government[al legacy] anti-Polish. But he doesn't because clearly Poland has moved on. As Poles welcome Ukrainians, the ridiculousness of this would become apparent.
Putin - and perhaps others to suit their purposes - has been teaching this for many years. I understand many Russians believe it. Just like some Jews joined the Bolsheviks to defend themselves against an historical enemy. So did some Ukrainians assist the Nazis in a bid to free themselves from the Stalinists.
Some Poles have moved on, not all. There is still anti-Ukrainian feeling in Poland. It's just Poles hate Russian more than they hate Ukrainians.
It's a matter of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
Besides which, Poles are depended on American aid and protection.
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History does matter, of course, and for both sides. But here Poland and Ukraine are not so unlike their neighbors, most of which have conflicting views on some historical events, and the different interpretations have to be dealt with sooner or later. One such difficult episode that has proved a sticking point in Polish-Ukrainian relations is the massacre of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia carried out in 1943–1944 by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which resulted in up to 100,000 Polish civilian casualties. This ethnic cleansing is widely recognized by Polish and most Western historians as genocide. The problem of how to characterize these events was raised in bilateral talks after 1991 at Warsaw’s initiative but in a rather subtle manner, as the Poles waited for certain processes in Ukraine to mature. However, subsequent Ukrainian governments have neither wanted to condemn the UPA nor even taken this issue seriously.
Last October Poland’s top diplomat, Witold Waszczykowski, published an article in the Rzeczpospolita daily with the telling title, “Warsaw Wants an Alliance with Kyiv.” There were just two sentences about history.
Unfortunately, Ukrainian decision-makers and pundits overlooked—or, worse, ignored—this program article. Just a month later the Kyiv-based Foreign Policy Council Ukrainian Prism conducted a poll among Ukrainian scholars dealing with international affairs. One of the questions elicited opinions on which countries were considered most hostile toward Ukraine. The result was surprising: Poland was in fifth place It seems that at least some Ukrainian experts have a problem assessing reality. The general fog surrounding the matter of Polish-Ukrainian relations from the Ukrainian perspective means it would be difficult to find a statement by any influential decision-maker that attempted to outline what Ukraine actually expects from Poland and where Warsaw stands in Ukrainian foreign policy.
While the idea of Poland as a regional leader is enjoying an increasing support among the ruling elite and the general public, Kyiv is questioning the credibility of Poland as a bridge between Ukraine and the EU. Ukrainian experts and politicians have started to doubt the value of maintaining good relations with Poland. At one of the meetings of the Polish-Ukrainian dialogue group, one participant reportedly asked: “what do we need Poland for?” Poles may be disappointed by Ukraine’s inability to keep up the pace of reform and develop a balanced and well-thought-out historical policy, but Ukrainians are also disappointed with Poland, or at least surprised by the apparent rollback of democracy in a country that used to serve as a model for economic and political success. . . . . . . . . . . . .long jump between paragraphs.
However, there has been an increase in voices claiming that Poland should stop helping Ukraine as the latter not only does not appreciate the help, but openly spits in its neighbour’s face with its historical policy. This has been associated with a hostile rhetoric towards Ukrainians in Polish media along with strong statements from some Polish politicians.
The Kukiz’15 party leader, Paweł Kukiz, recently declared that “Poland should stop helping Ukraine for as long as Ukrainians keep naming streets after the devil”. There are openly anti-Ukrainian communities in Poland such as the Kresowianie (representing the successors of the Eastern part of the Second Polish Republic), who are accused of . . . . inciting hatred towards Ukraine. Over the past several years, the influence of these groups has significantly strengthened. . . . . . . . . . .
According to historical documents, in 1880 Selets had a total population of 781 inhabitants, of which 657 were Greek Catholics, thirty-two were Roman Catholics, eighty-five were Jewish, and seven were of other faiths.
The local Jewish population was murdered during the Holocaust; after the war, members of the local nobility as well as wealthier peasants and non-Ukrainians were either executed or deported
Wikipedia
This book has details of how the Ukrainians murdered his town's Polish minority:
For the record: Unlike Ukrainians, Poles welcomed Jews.
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Before the Holocaust, Jews were the largest minority in Poland. In Poland’s major cities, Jews and Poles spoke each other’s languages and interacted in markets and on the streets. Even the market towns, or shtetls, that have come to represent the lives of Jews in Eastern Europe were, to some extent, mixed communities. That did not mean that antisemitism did not impact the lives of Polish Jews, but Jews were part of Poland, and Polish culture was, in part, Jewish.
Jews had been living in Poland since at least the Middle Ages. When Crusaders moved through Europe in the thirteenth century, Jewish refugees sought safety in Poland. The 1264 Statute of Kalisz created legal protections for Jews that were extended by King Kazimierz Wielki, or Casimir the Great, in the early fourteenth century. With these protections, Jewish communities in Poland began to thrive. Scholars suggest that by the sixteenth century, 80 percent of all Jews worldwide lived in Poland, where they enjoyed relative autonomy and tolerance and developed a rich social and cultural life, including several significant Jewish religious movements, such as the Hasidim (a sect of Judaism with an emphasis on mysticism and prayer) and a Jewish reformation movement called the Haskalah.
Poles were, by nationality, the most numerous persons who rescued Jews during the Holocaust. To date, 7,177 ethnic Poles have been recognized by the State of Israel as Righteous among the Nations – more, by far, than the citizens of any other country.
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