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Precisely, I thought of you and the generational pain from the past wrongs. But hesitated to mention another poster by name. Poland as a nation has moved on - to where I'm frankly surprised at the generosity of the seemingly open borders even though I suppose Ukrainians can travel without visas.
It wasn't that many years ago when Stalin forcibly separated the communities to keep them from killing each other, for the Poles retaliated as peoples tend to do. Or perhaps defended is the better word. Very hard to judge, without literally being there.
I understand that fully (the bold). Although it was more than a suppression of peasants (the kulaks). Stalin needed Ukrainian wheat to export for foreign exchange to industrialize the USSR.
From recall (its been years since I've looked at this), the primary Stalinist official who incidentally was Jewish hid the extent of the starvation from Moscow resulting from the need to meet quotas. Ukraine, particularly Eastern Ukraine that contained the richest soils - suffered disproportionally. Which is why Eastern Ukraine is disproportionally ethnic Russian, with Russians were subsequently relocated into the region to takeover now vacant areas.
What spurs hate was the end-result to Ukrainians for whom a theoretical Stalinist intent or misapplied policy would be meaningless. To dismiss this as "an invention" does not begin to capture the horror many experienced - and retold to the best of their knowledge.
That is not to say it could not have been propagandized - just like Putin uses history - but it cannot be dismissed as a motivator for subsequent events, which was widespread Ukrainian cooperation with Germans.
There was NO widespread cooperation with Germans "across Ukraine."
"The Young Guard (Russian: Молодая гвардия, translit. Molodaya gvardiya, Ukrainian: Молода гвардія, translit. Moloda hvardiya) was an underground anti-fascistKomsomol organization, in the German-occupied Soviet city of Krasnodon (Ukrainian SSR, now Luhansk Oblast of Ukraine). They were active during World War II, until January 1943. They carried out several acts of sabotage and protest before being destroyed by German forces. Most members of the Young Guard, about 80 people, were tortured and then executed by the Germans."
Now can you imagine all these people with their drastically different moral beliefs being united in "one country" in the long run?
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The attraction Bolshevism had for Jews, who as a suppressed people - went beyond pogroms. I used that word too generically as a symbol. The point was that Bolsheviks were disproportionally Jewish - although not the top leadership - a fact not lost on Ukrainians etc. That the Germans exploited - both in their own country and elsewhere.
That's what I keep on hearing, but if not the "top leadership," then who exactly?
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Portions of the Azov Battalion did adopt Nazi ideology. No one disagrees the Ukrainian government needed better control over them. Frankly IDK much about Donbass - only a general understanding there were also Russian separatist militias that were also problematic. Who starts what is difficult to sort.
This guy above with his "left ideas" doesn't come across as "Putin's actor" at all.
Up to a point, that Ukrainians were trying to write off his assassination on Kremlin.
But he was a "moderate left" ( I think he used to even run his own business before.)
He was the head of the DNR, but the LNR was straightforward center of the "ultra-left" forces flocking there from other countries.
Would Putin be remotely interested in people with this mindset?
Heck no.
There were reasons he was keeping his distance from Donbass when they started their rebellion.
I understand that it's difficult for you to sort it all out, but I've been watching it closely year after year - it's all on this thread.
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A lot of history can only be what people are told, otherwise it is lost. With a problem coming when different peoples are given different versions. That then can inflame hate. Since Russians massacred Poles at Katyn it is not a surprise that Banderas (UPA) ethnic cleansing them in 1943-44 was not taught. Poles were fellow Communists, the Ukraine now pacified. All now brothers. Best to move on.
I've never heard of Katyn until recently either.
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When it comes to why Stepan Bandera is a "hero" to some Ukrainians, what counts is what Ukrainians were taught. How that came about, and why. This is analogous to what the word "Nazi" means to a Russian. What it is code for. Russians - and frankly not without merit - interpret it thru their lens.
I'll mention it another post - because that is the larger point.
The Russians interpret "Bandera and his followers as Hitler collaborators first and utmost.
There were attempts to rehabilitate Andrey Vlasov and his "Liberation Army" too, as "Russian patriots" of some kind, but the verdict of the society soon followed.
"Nazi collaborator" first and utmost, the rest is less important.
Does anybody here think that perhaps Ukraine was destined to be attacked and taken over by Russia?
Personally for me it came as a shock.
That's not something I expected at all.
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Becoming a democracy allied with the west wasn't in the cards?
Ukraine is no "democracy" - it's the corrupt state run by the oligarchy and the Nationalists, that is used by America/NATO in their proxy war against Russia.
"Ukrainian democracy" is a catchy phrase for a coverup.
If post 2014 Ukraine were turned into the democratic state with the upgraded standards of living for its general population, then Russian public could have perceive things differently at least.
But so far they know what they see.
It's all very reminiscent of what "Russia proper" went through under the guidance of "American economic advisers" back in the 90ies.
Our Russian stooges have been doing their best to make it look like having the Russians invade and bomb your country is a positive for the people, who feel like they are on holiday! *shaking my head*
Ukraine saw large anti-Russian protests today, and over 1.7 million refugees have fled the war-torn country so far, and the Russkis are just getting going.
Ukraine is no "democracy" - it's the corrupt state run by the oligarchy and the Nationalists, that is used by America/NATO in their proxy war against Russia.
"Ukrainian democracy" is a catchy phrase for a coverup.
If Ukraine were turned into the democratic state with the upgraded standards of living for its general population, then Russian public could have perceive things differently.
It is hard to understand this from an American point of view. Russia and Ukraine seem to be pretty similar countries. Even Putin said the 2 countries have a strong bond and a common heritage.
Russia is also run by an oligarchy and nationalists. (For that matter, so is the United States to an extent. Our superrich are among the richest people in the world. So, we can relate to this).
This is why the enmity between Russia and Ukraine makes people scratch their heads. Why would one country attack another which is so similar to itself?
It is hard to understand this from an American point of view. Russia and Ukraine seem to be pretty similar countries. Even Putin said the 2 countries have a strong bond and a common heritage.
Russia is also run by an oligarchy and nationalists. (For that matter, so is the United States to an extent. Our superrich are among the richest people in the world. So, we can relate to this).
This is why the enmity between Russia and Ukraine makes people scratch their heads. Why would one country attack another which is so similar to itself?
The Ukrainian government actually changes from time to time (unlike Russia's), and the people can run for election in Ukraine without being jailed, poisoned or shot if it appears they might win - which is the fate of Putin's political opponents in Russia. In fact, Putin even poisoned a politician running in a Ukrainian election for not being pro-Putin (Viktor Yuschenko).
It is hard to understand this from an American point of view. Russia and Ukraine seem to be pretty similar countries. Even Putin said the 2 countries have a strong bond and a common heritage.
I totally understand it, since I lived most of my life in US already, so I am well-aware how things are perceived here in the US.
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Russia is also run by an oligarchy and nationalists.
Don't make mistake - by the oligarchs, yes, but definitely NOT by the Russian nationalists.
As a multi-ethnic country, this would be highly destructive for the Russian state.
Anyone who will tell you differently, is greatly misguided.
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(For that matter, so is the United States to an extent. Our superrich are among the richest people in the world. So, we can relate to this).
I can't.
I still can see the difference between the "Sovok 0.2" version ("Sovok" is a denigrating reference to the USSR, to whatever was negative about it, but that is not to say that there was nothing good about it. This wouldn't be true either.)
So I still definitely see the difference between the "Sovok 0.2" version and America.
Many Russians that don't live here don't see the difference.
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This is why the enmity between Russia and Ukraine makes people scratch their heads. Why would one country attack another which is so similar to itself?
To make the long story short - I'd say that Ukrainian nationalism (the hatred it promoted towards Russia as its baseline,) is what made all the difference in this case.
According to the director of operations for the International Committee of the Red Cross, Dominik Stillhart, Putin indicated yesterday that a route out of Mariupol was a "safe corridor", but he had his army plant mines in the road, and as many Ukrianians in the city said, the Russian army also shot at civilians trying to leave.
"Illustrating his point, [Stillhart] said some ICRC staff had tried to get out of Mariupol along an agreed route on Sunday, but soon realised 'the road indicated to them was actually mined'."
It is hard to understand this from an American point of view. Russia and Ukraine seem to be pretty similar countries. Even Putin said the 2 countries have a strong bond and a common heritage.
Russia is also run by an oligarchy and nationalists. (For that matter, so is the United States to an extent. Our superrich are among the richest people in the world. So, we can relate to this).
This is why the enmity between Russia and Ukraine makes people scratch their heads. Why would one country attack another which is so similar to itself?
This "brotherly" people bs is just that - bs. Using the same twisted logic one can say that American Indians and European Americans are "brotherly" people. There are colonizers (Russians) and there are colonized (Ukrainians). Russian colonizers have been using Ukrainians as cannon fodder and work force to advance Russian imperial agenda for the past 350 years while trying to destroy Ukrainians as self-aware people. Ukrainians sustained enormous loses under Russian rule, dead and absorbed into Russian collective. Having a big Russian "brother" is one of the greatest curses out there. Sure there was/is some mingling and interbreeding on the personals level between two groups. So what? It does not change the fact that the Russians (not just elites) do not accept Ukrainians as a group that has a right to decide their destiny without Russian directions. Ukrainians suffered not just linguistic/cultural russification, their historical memories and perceptions were rewired by terror and propaganda. It's not the first time Russians kill Ukrainians in the name of Empire, but thoroughly russified Ukrainians perceive slaughter and subjugation of their ancestors as some sort of a favor Russian "brothers" did for them. 1984 rests. If Russians will subjugate Ukraine one more time, Ukrainians under Russian rule will eventually view 2022 slaughter as a big favor by selfless Russian brothers too.
Russians are very clear about why they cheer for Vlad' 2022 war, they think that 30 years of independence resulted in a generation of Ukrainians outside of the Russian cultural/propaganda matrix, and that must be corrected asap for the sake of Empire.
Last edited by RememberMee; 03-07-2022 at 04:44 PM..
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Large Protests in Ukraine, 1.7M Have Fled
