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So met's resume the situation : the South Sudanese tribes who run around half naked slaughtering each other and beandishing kalashnikows have the right from secession from Sudan. But the Crimeans (a civilized european population) have absolutely no right of secession from Ukraine. Such is the world as "the West " sees it. Helter skelter...
Well let's put a fork in it. It's done, a done deal. The Ukraine will never be able t influence anything there now. If anything Putin has his 'loaf'. And Mr. Lavrov who i really thought may apply some rationality to the situation just can't 'understand' sanctions' at this point?. I have to say he has the gall to say something as it is 'impossible to work honestly under the threat of ultimatums and sanctions'.
And a history lesson. In 1812, that 'master' of Europe, Napoleon took a ride to visit Moscow. My Russian friends know the history. Oh he got Moscow burned alright but things didn't work out a planned. I wonder if soemthing like that could happen to Mr. Putin. i.e. overreaching. If Mr. Putin errs here in this Ukrainian bizness he may see his political stature wind up along the lines of that Napoleonic 'Berezina' miltary disaster.
To press the pressure, 'doors' are being closed right now as we speak. I'm intrigued how all this 'end' or will it be a sore that never heals?
That's funny. You probably live in the Soviet era. Putin decided this, Putin has decided that. For you, Putin is a disease? Val needs such as better Yeltsin or Gorbachev right? Not as well as your country. Putin decides everything in Russia.
So met's resume the situation : the South Sudanese tribes who run around half naked slaughtering each other and beandishing kalashnikows have the right from secession from Sudan. But the Crimeans (a civilized european population) have absolutely no right of secession from Ukraine. Such is the world as "the West " sees it. Helter skelter...
The west never cares about "rights" or "legality". They only care about what's in it for them. Apparently when Crimea, which was part of Russia, wants to break away, it is illegal; but when Tibet which had been part of China for 800 years, wants to secede from China, it is totally noble.
The west has lost its credibility a long time ago. Yet funnily every time something happens, they automatically pretend to hold the moral highground waving the "freedom" and "human rights" flags.
I'd respect the west a lot more if they just took a more barbaric approach like 300 years ago, than all these pretentious moral accusations as if they respect international laws and the sovereignty of countries.
Last edited by botticelli; 03-07-2014 at 07:45 AM..
Why are you still talking about this nonsense about Georgia ?
Because back then Russia used the same lame excuse to get involved in that conflict as in the present one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast
Examine the report of the international commission that investigated the incident and did not say any more of this nonsense .
You seem to only have read the first half of the report.
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Originally Posted by GreyKarast
Why when the U.S. ( it creates them always , constantly and everywhere ) you are silent?
I'm not. Neither did the international community keep silent. Anyhow: You seem to imply that it's okay to breach international law, because the United States are breaching it sometimes. A laughable argument.
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Originally Posted by GreyKarast
You like pets who are afraid that your host nada by the pope .
Pets? Nada? The Pope? What the hell?
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Originally Posted by GreyKarast
There is no genocide ? You ask this Russian who live there and how they are forbidden to speak in Russian and be Russian . first ordered that the illegal government is established law banning the Russian language in Ukraine.
1. Said law never went into force.
2. It would not have forbidden people to speak the Russian language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast
You do not have relatives there . So do not say that you do not know .In Crimea valid legal authority which elected citizens of Ukraine legally . Not the power that came at gunpoint . You want to be in your country who either created a new power which is not in your best interest and violate your constitution ? You'll maintain that power which previously chose themselves , or that which is forced upon you without your demand at gunpoint ?
So, how did Sergey Aksyonov, pro-Russian and involved in organized crime, become Prime Minister of Crimea? His party got 4% at the last elections.
Oh right. Russian soldiers closed off the Crimean parliament and he was elected (or installed by Moscow?) in a secret and closed off parliament meeting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast
Stupidity ? You probably knew very little about the economy and who supplies resources for the EU. Germany feeds you and germanium suffer great losses. you probably need a primary school for the course of the economy and geography.
First off, Germanium is something you'll hear of when taking a chemistry class, not one on economics. Second, yes, Germany is the biggest economy in the EU and we are working with them. You know what? Positive foreign relations, like we have them wit Germany, is something that gets established when you stop to stick weapons in the face of your neighbor. Something Russia clearly hasn't figured out by now.
What do people here think the future of Ukraine will be one year from now? Five years from now? I think Crimea for all practical purposes will be part of the Russian Federation or the least an independent country. Some other Eastern regions will declare independance in the upcoming months. By the West covertly intervening in Ukraine political affairs by funding and coaching anti Russian opposition groups forced Russia to reciprocate to defend its national interests. If western sanctions are punitive enough on Russia for annexing Crimea the Russian government has a high probability of annexing all Eastern Ukraine because they feel they have nothing to lose anymore in the terms of sanctions.
My prediction for the future:
Crimea will breakaway from Ukraine and be part of Russia. Ukraine and eastern Europe in general, will be anti-Russian and oriented more then ever towards western Europe and the United States. Russia expelled from the G8. The European Union will be working toward freeing itself from Russian energy sources and strengthen its alliance with the United States and Canada.
Questions:
1. If Russia stops at Crimea will damaged relations with Europe and USA be limited?
2. Or does Russia continue on to take other parts of Ukraine?
3. If so, will China eventually take advantage of a isolated Russia?
4. Can Russia turn to India as a possible hedge against China?
Is western Ukraine (Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivsti, etc.) in turmoil? Besides the Ukrainians, Russians, and Tatars, how are the other ethnic groups in Ukraine (Hungarians, Poles, Romanians, etc.) being affected by what is going on?
BTW, there is this article about Tatars moving to west Ukraine:
Is western Ukraine (Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Chernivsti, etc.) in turmoil? Besides the Ukrainians, Russians, and Tatars, how are the other ethnic groups in Ukraine (Hungarians, Poles, Romanians, etc.) being affected by what is going on?
These are rather small minorities, Romanians around 400,000 people Hungarians and Poles around 150,000 each. Most of them stand with the new Kiev government. Western Ukraine is completely peaceful and the core area of supporting the Maidan uprising.
Because back then Russia used the same lame excuse to get involved in that conflict as in the present one.
It was not a lame excuse, even the OSCE held Georgia at fault for the conflict. Geogia moved heavy weapons into the area and launched an attack on the disputed territories (that were not even part of Georgia during Soviet times), and against Russian peacekeepers who were authorized to be there. Russia responded as any country would have responded; that is why the hype over the issue went away quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis
I'm not. Neither did the international community keep silent. Anyhow: You seem to imply that it's okay to breach international law, because the United States are breaching it sometimes. A laughable argument.
No, it is not ok to breach international law, two wrongs do not make a right, however, international law (like all laws) loses its legitimacy and spirit when it is not applied equally. And I think the bringing in of other countries breaking the law is not regarding the situation itself, but the reaction by other countries to the situation.
The situation is real simple, the reaction by world leaders is not. I have issue with how Russia conducted itself, but I have even more issues with the reaction to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis
First off, Germanium is something you'll hear of when taking a chemistry class, not one on economics. Second, yes, Germany is the biggest economy in the EU and we are working with them. You know what? Positive foreign relations, like we have them wit Germany, is something that gets established when you stop to stick weapons in the face of your neighbor. Something Russia clearly hasn't figured out by now.
I agree, I mentioned early and other threads how Russia is severly lacking in soft power. Germany has made more progress and influence through soft power than any military it has ever had. Out of all countries in the world, Russia has relatively huge abilities to leverage soft power in its favor (and its people will benefit as well).
The only counter to this entire thing is:
- info the public does not know?
- and the theory that the West is trying to weaken and isolate Russia, thus causing it to break apart, or turn it into an Africa type situation to exploit resources. This actually has a lot of credibility the way things have been going (right or wrong). Isolating Russia from the Black/Med Sea is one of the crucial goals to do this.
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