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Well Balts ( Estonians in particular) were not targeted by Germans for extermination on ethnic basis
This sentence can be paraphrased "Nazis did not do something bad, because Nazi Germany did not kill Estonians"
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Originally Posted by erasure
however Balts in general suffered as the result of the WWII both of German and Russian invasions. They were the ultimate "collateral damage" in that war, so I understand their perspective, the way they looked at both Russia and Germany after that war.
Estonians tried to form an alliance with Germany, but Germany did not support them (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). All of Europe suffered from that war. Only the United States had won. They have raised the industry to Lend-Lease and came to distribution of trophies in 1944. Soviets are not destroyed Estonia, their language and culture, now it is a free country. Everything could have ended much more sad for them, because it was a cruel time.
erasure, [US economical experts deliberately giving bad advice to Yeltsin]
not a "proof", of course. But at least some evidence.
Some mentioning, discussing,examining, pros and cons.
At this point we just have your posts here, I never heard about it elsewhere.
I haven't heard about it either, initially. Initially I thought it was one big mistake, when I was reading in "Newsweek" about Gaidar and Russian reforms, about " $13,5 billion dollars that Russian businessmen got in business profits and deposited abroad on private bank accounts" ( according to Wall Street Journal in 1991) and so on. It were some English-speakers ( both Americans and Brits) actually that started referring me to certain materials few years down the road, starting from this - The Harvard Boys Do Russia | The Nation and then I started looking into Russian sources, cross-referencing the material. That Yavlinsky's interview ( and everything I've heard form "Yabloko" people) was the last missing piece of the puzzle; the latest discussions of Brzesinsky's "The Grand Chessboard" on Russian sites was what you'd call the cherry on top. The Eurasian Chessboard: Brzezinski Mapped Out “The Battle for Ukraine” in 1997 | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
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And you present it _as fact_ rather than just a theory, which is also typical.
I think you should at least include an "I think" or such, when you present it.
So, at first sight this looks to me like one of the other crazy conspiracy theories that you
find in internet and I'm not yet very much motivated to research it, read the book or such.
So no, I don't just "think so," - there is plenty of evidence that what I am saying here is definitely a case.
Although initially ( initially,) when I was in Moscow shortly after the disbandment of the Parliament, I couldn't even comprehend what that was all about.
P.S. I did mention here before that I was on the Capitol Hill as well in the nineties, when it was all taking place, so...
yes, my initial perception was that it was one big and terrible mistake, that could have been "fixed."
By now I know that it was not a "mistake." I know better.
Have others created factory for the destruction of people on an ethnic basis in the 20th century? Let's not confuse the war and crime. War is always bad, but war was and will be always. Hitler did not just war, therefore he's a criminal.
Hitler vs. Stalin -
suppose, by some coincidence/luck Hitler had won - would he still be the bad guy ?
Sure, he aggressively invaded Poland, then Russia, hungered Leningrad killed Jews,
but others did similar things. I think a Hitler could have emerged in many other
countries as well, [at that time, hopefully not so much nowadays]
giving some -almost random- circumstances and developments.
Foreign policy is hard to predict.
No, what sets Hitler apart from *others* is his racial theories. That's what was unprecedented about him.
If not for his racial theories, he could have been regarded within the same frame as Napoleon or what's not.
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Would Russia be better off today, if they had lost WW2 ?
Huh? I am surprised to even hear this question. If Russia would have lost WW2, it would have ceased its existence all together as a nation. That was the whole idea behind that war. As I've already said, Hitler ain't Napoleon.
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Or would Germany had been better off if they had won ?
Hard to say, because Germany wouldn't have been the country you know - it would have been a totally new conglomerate of people, with totally different borders and different ideas behind the state.
This sentence can be paraphrased "Nazis did not do something bad, because Nazi Germany did not kill Estonians"
Yes, you can probably say that, when it comes to Estonians, looking from their perspective.
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Estonians tried to form an alliance with Germany, but Germany did not support them (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).
Probably. What Eastern Europeans ( let me put Estonians into the same category for a moment in this case) do not understand, is the reason they end up under Russian thumb to begin with, is because the "Western masters" do not care about them too much, while they mistakenly think that the West really-really wants them - it's just Russia that doesn't let them to be where *they belong.*
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All of Europe suffered from that war. Only the United States had won. They have raised the industry to Lend-Lease and came to distribution of trophies in 1944.
Yes, pretty much so.
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Soviets are not destroyed Estonia, their language and culture, now it is a free country.
That much is true as well. No matter how much Russians are accused of brutality, in reality they've never set anyone for total elimination or destruction. They downsize, they control, they oppress, yet they always keep the tree ( whatever ethnic tree that can be) alive.
"The fact is that thousands of Americans went to Russia hoping to help its people attain a better life. The American and Western effort over the last 25 years — to which the United States and Europe devoted billions of dollars — was aimed at helping Russia overcome the horrid legacy of Soviet communism, which left the country on its knees in 1991. It was not about conquering Russia but rather about saving it, offering the proven tools of market capitalism and democracy, which were not imposed but welcomed. The United States also spent hundreds of millions of dollars to make Russia safer from loose nukes and joined a fruitful collaboration in outer space. Avid volunteers came to Russia and donated endless hours to imparting the lessons of how to hold jury trials, build a free press, design equity markets, carry out political campaigning and a host of other components of an open, prosperous society. The Americans came for the best of reasons."(c) After the fall of the Soviet Union, the U.S. tried to help Russians - The Washington Post
The United States and Europe devoted billions of credits, which then had to pay with interest.
And I do not know exactly, these consultations were useful or not, but the fact is that it have destroyed economy, country and led to a huge population delamination.
Chinese have been able to restructure their economy much more successful.
Add to this a military operation against Serbia, NATO expansion to the Russian borders, support Islamic militants and anti-Russian government in the post-Soviet countries, constant critic of Putin, who enjoys the support of 80% of Russians, and you will understand why Russians do not like the West.
Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 05-07-2015 at 03:37 AM..
Russia could not have disappeared after a lost WW2. There would probably have been established a
German-friendly government for some time, the military equipment seized, Jews killed.
But somehow Russia is too big to be ruled and controlled from Germany in the long run.
So there would have been some sort of Russian government(s).
Probably no communism, no Warsaw pact. But would it have been bad for Russia
in the long run ? That's hard to say. These people didn't see the future with
facturies,cars,oil,airplanes computers, antibiotics, increasing life-expectancy -
else the whole war, the struggle for power would have been recognized as meaningless.
And other than in wars before It was not power that made life better but science.
Hitler's racism - we had it even worse with religious fanatism before.
In Germany the worst war was 1618-1648, catholics vs. lutherians,
and most of the Prussian militaristic thinking in later centuries was a consequence
of that bad war which killed 30% of people.
Then Christians against Muslims in the middle ages, also sort of racism.
Why Hitler hated Jews - I may have read it but forgot.
Personal experiences maybe.
Hitler also hated Bolshewiks,Marxism and he may have planned war against Russia
(but not England) from the beginning, I read.
Anyway, he was a soldier from WW1, artist, not a politician or lawyer
nor military academy or such.
He had the ability to speak to the masses. I had read an analysis that
similar things could have happened in other countries.
He was not just genetically evil or such.
But I'm still against the installation of an equal sign between Stalin and Hitler. Stalin sought subjugation of people by any means. Another dictator, which hundreds in history. Hitler sought extermination of separate human races.
erasure,
I read the 4 pages of your The Harvard Boys Do Russia link, but nothing in it suggested
planned mismanagement so to harm Russia, as you did put it.
Just (maybe) incompetence, conflict of interests, bad control, wrong strategy.
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