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"American reps were all over the place in Maidan". LOL! What you saw a picture of someone wearing a New Yaork Yankee baseball cap? NOLA is correct. Americans could care less about the Ukraine. Its the EU and The Ukrainian government that have been cozy. The USA and the EU is just playing "good cop/bad cop" (USA being the bad cop), but everyone here sees this as a European problem and not ours. We have bigger fish to fry with the Islamo-fascists.
He's just repeating the Kremlin propaganda. He may even be paid from the Kremlin, it is well known that they pay thousands of posters to put propaganda on English-language webpages worldwide, in order to confuse the issue.
If you read the NY Times or Wall Street Journal or BBC, you see the exact same posters as Erasure, and the like, sometimes making the same word-for-word text, like copying from a script. They even post the exact same clips from Youtube; it is just part of a nonsense propaganda campaign.
I live in the U.S. right now, and no one cares about Ukraine. The idea that the U.S. is involved in Ukrainian politics, or somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine, is obviously completely delusional, and Erasure and the rest know it, they are just repeating the stale Cold War script from the Kremlin.
The thing is, Russia's base of political support is pensioners in the countryside. The educated and city dwellers hate him because they know it is all nonsense and they know he is killing Russia's future.
But the old rural pensioners, they LOVE Putin and all the Cold War nonsense. It is like feeding raw meat to a lion. That's the reason Putin is actually increasing pensions by a huge amount, even as the country's economy collapses.
Probably. The problem is, South-Eastern parts of Ukraine had no part in those events, as the map clearly shows it. Yanukovich was voted in as a president primarily because of those those parts of the country and they were not about to target his regime with Molotov's cocktails.
Kiev sucks up people from the periphery, South and Eastern Ukraine was well represented in those protests. Mostly because Yanukovich regime has made small & medium businesses nearly impossible. It wasn't Ukrainian speaking West vs. Russian speaking East in November of 2014, as you imply. It was people who had enough vs. Yanukovich regime. Most of those people were not proletarians or farm workers but middle class (aspirants), it was a genuine bourgeois revolution against post soviet neo feudalism. You cannot assign allegiance to Yanukovich by geographical default. The striking difference between protests of 2004 and 2014, in 2004 Donetsk clan packed thousands of busses with thousands of Eastern Ukrainians to march for Yanukovich in Kiev. In 2014 it failed to do the same. After Yanukovich fled the remnant of his base evaporated. In the spring of 2014 people in Donetsk were running with Russian flags and Putin pictures chanting "Putin penetrate us" (translation that reflects sexual innuendoes of that slogan ). Nobody was running with Yanukovich pictures and demanding his return to power. Even though it was not up to them what pictures to run with. Comrade Putin decided that, Donetsk people were the willing herd seduced by the promise of the tripled up salaries and pensions under Russian protectorate.
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The reason that pro-Russian protest in Donetsk was "short-lived," was because at that point Russia didn't stand by the protesters, ( they way it did in Crimea,) while American reps were all over the place on Maidan. And then - then Ukrainian tanks moved in to the South East, where people were trying to stop them with bare hands.
You are not quite honest with facts and chronology. Crimean annexation came first. Thousands of Ukrainian army personnel committed a mass act of treason in Crimea. Not a single Ukrainian soldier (among those who didn't betray openly) had guts to attack Russian invasion forces and their nazi collaborants. A few units of poorly equipped, demoralized Ukrainian army was advancing towards Russian border to counteract Russian forces massed at the borders right at the time pro Russian demonstrators were stabbing, beating and killing Ukrainians in Donetsk. That is when small, mobile well organized groups of local collaborants were following and blocking Ukrainian troops, thus committing an act of treason, that is when the flags of DNR appeared first. Those troops were moving to the border to counteract possible Russian attack, they didn't move to fight non existent at the time DNR. Civilian population was passive at first. (pro) Russians have a strong herd elements in them, as soon as the news spread that "Decision was made", Putin would annex South Eastern Ukraine too, more civilians collaborators joined the mobile groups. What would your favorite comrade Stalin have done to the civilians blocking Soviet troops en route to Soviet-German front line? It's easy to answer. What Ukrainian army have done? Nothing, except losing a few soldiers to the shots from civilian crowds. Bloody junta indeed.
Military action began only after influx of the Russian nazi volunteers from Russia proper. Igor Strelkov, the leader of the invading nazi volunteers already wrote a memoir of a sort about those events 1 year ago, he admits that without his forces, Ukrainians would unlikely have started a fight among themselves. First, Ukrainian army was just giving up its weapons to the Russian nazis who were using civilians crowds to engulf the troops. Valorous act indeed.
Let me freshen up your memories: Annexation of Crimea-Activation of the sleeper cells in SE Ukraine -civilians committing a treason by blocking troops movement - influx of the Russian nazi volunteers from Russia - DNR - use of the crowd as a shield to disarm Ukrainian troops - war.
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I was watching it all unfold, starting with that "short-lived" pro-Russian protests all over the place in the South-East, in Donetsk in particular. ( Of course you can say that it were all "Russians bussed in," but that's where the deception would start.
You have very selective vision. Russians were bussed in all over South East. A Russian nazi from Russia removed Ukrainian flag from a government building in Kharkov, things were very volatile everywhere from Donetsk to Odessa, but nothing even remotely resembling mass protests in Kiev. SE has seen 10,000 strong protests at most, plenty of the Russian tourists among those. That's why comrade Putin went to plan B.
You want me to admire action of the civilian traitors blocking Ukrainian army with bare hands because they knew well that it's not Stalin' army and there is little to fear, besides Russian leader will protect them, annex them and reward with tripled salaries for their gallant actions.
Thanx for that link Erasure. That article was a little more detailed than mine was.
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Ah yeah...
The nazis are rocking the boat from what I've noticed..
I think they are realizing by now that no one is planning to let them out of the cauldron.
See, "Kievan Russia" and "Sich" are both National Guard battalions, and DNRs promised safety to regular Ukrainian troops ( conscripts and all) if they surrender, however they didn't promise the same to the Nazis - the likes of "Azov."
So here ( whoever these people are - from "Azov" I assume?) are cursing Kiev's government, saying that "there are only 20 people left" from 26th batallion ( Kievan Rus, Sich - whatever,) and that something needs to be done, urgently, in order to save them.
It seems to be what's developing. The NAF wants the Einsatzgruppens heads on pikes. I can't blame them they're who have been the main characters in all of this. Porkochunko has no control over them.
The pocket will be reduced slowly I guess and there will not be much left of the towns in the area. I hear not all of the civvies are out either. They'll suffer even more.
He's just repeating the Kremlin propaganda. He may even be paid from the Kremlin, it is well known that they pay thousands of posters to put propaganda on English-language webpages worldwide, in order to confuse the issue.
If you read the NY Times or Wall Street Journal or BBC, you see the exact same posters as Erasure, and the like, sometimes making the same word-for-word text, like copying from a script. They even post the exact same clips from Youtube; it is just part of a nonsense propaganda campaign.
I live in the U.S. right now, and no one cares about Ukraine. The idea that the U.S. is involved in Ukrainian politics, or somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine, is obviously completely delusional, and Erasure and the rest know it, they are just repeating the stale Cold War script from the Kremlin.
The thing is, Russia's base of political support is pensioners in the countryside. The educated and city dwellers hate him because they know it is all nonsense and they know he is killing Russia's future.
But the old rural pensioners, they LOVE Putin and all the Cold War nonsense. It is like feeding raw meat to a lion. That's the reason Putin is actually increasing pensions by a huge amount, even as the country's economy collapses.
I was born in Kiev and I have been following these Ukraine developments. The first question I have asked while Maidan was unfolding was " who is paying for this ?" And there is allot that says it was US of A. Only now it looks like US got it's tail caught in Ukraine
US can't even broker a peace treaty while blaming the Russians in this stage of the game.
I don't argue with that, but define "people" first. If PART of them has this right, then OTHER PART has the same right to take guns in their hands and to defend what they consider fair.
I don't see why any people would see outlawing of freedom of speech, assembly, etc. as fair or desirable. Even the most repressive regimes don't run under the slogans "No Freedom of Speech", "No Freedom of Assembly", "If we don't approve, it is Extremism". Kiev protesters didn't take guns in their hand to fight for joining EU, the events started to heat up only after Yanukovich introduced anti democratic laws and deployed thugs all over Kiev, thus giving glimpses of the things to come. Yes, I believe all the people have the moral right and obligation to fight for the basic political freedoms and human dignity. Had the Kiev regime outlawed Donetsk people' basic political freedoms, they would have had all the rights to fight. The right to betray your own country is not a basic human right, sorry.
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And as the first part of people has the possibility to ask for help from foreign states, so does the other part of people have the same right.
Agree, Ukrainians have all the rights to demand military support from the signatories of the Budapest protocol and all they get "There is no military solution", too bad comrade Putin doesn't see it that way.
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But see, if American reps wouldn't have been all over the place before and during Maidan events, you could have been talking about "let Ukrainians to figure out their social organization."
But since it clearly not just "Ukrainians" that "are figuring out social organization," your statement doesn't make much sense.
That's called "the market place of ideas", invisible American reps didn't unleash rocket missile launchers to convey their wishes. Sorry, Russia is such a sorry loser. Maybe it should come up with something more appealing instead of trying to justify its paranoia with an invisible hand of the Anglo-Saxons (it used to be Judeo Masons 100 years ago)?
The idea that the U.S. is involved in Ukrainian politics, or somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine, is obviously completely delusional, and Erasure and the rest know it, they are just repeating the stale Cold War script from the Kremlin.
We may be delusional but you my friend are on another plane of reality. I'm not going to do another google search for you. Anybody with rational thought processes knows what happened.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,408,773 times
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Originally Posted by NOLA101
He's just repeating the Kremlin propaganda. He may even be paid from the Kremlin, it is well known that they pay thousands of posters to put propaganda on English-language webpages worldwide, in order to confuse the issue.
If you read the NY Times or Wall Street Journal or BBC, you see the exact same posters as Erasure, and the like, sometimes making the same word-for-word text, like copying from a script. They even post the exact same clips from Youtube; it is just part of a nonsense propaganda campaign.
I live in the U.S. right now, and no one cares about Ukraine. The idea that the U.S. is involved in Ukrainian politics, or somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine, is obviously completely delusional, and Erasure and the rest know it, they are just repeating the stale Cold War script from the Kremlin.
The thing is, Russia's base of political support is pensioners in the countryside. The educated and city dwellers hate him because they know it is all nonsense and they know he is killing Russia's future.
But the old rural pensioners, they LOVE Putin and all the Cold War nonsense. It is like feeding raw meat to a lion. That's the reason Putin is actually increasing pensions by a huge amount, even as the country's economy collapses.
I agree. I am ex-military and my sons are in the military (i work as a contractor for the military as well) and I can say first hand that we don't feel that the conflict is not our fight and it has been said over and over again that diplomacy is the way to solve this. But Russia needs to portray the USA as a manipulating boogey man in this conflict in order to try and get their people behind Putin. No different than ISIS calling everyone who isn't Sunni a "crusader" in the hopes of unifying them in their cause.
I was born in Kiev and I have been following these Ukraine developments. The first question I have asked while Maidan was unfolding was " who is paying for this ?" And there is allot that says it was US of A. Only now it looks like US got it's tail caught in Ukraine
US can't even broker a peace treaty while blaming the Russians in this stage of the game.
Have you found out the places where the payments were made? How much per protester? Considering the staggering amount of $ Russia already spent/lost on this, one would think that setting up competing payment booths at Maidan would have been cheaper, much cheaper. Also, that 180 degrees turn around of Yanukovich on EU association deal, it was quite perplexing. It's not like anybody was forcing Yanukovich to proceed with EU talks, neither it was necessary to brutally disperse the first crowd of protesters, everybody was going home anyway, but police decided to beat people in the bloody pulp as a lesson for the future. Do you see an Anglo Saxon hand behind those events?
Thanx for that link Erasure. That article was a little more detailed than mine was.
Oh, no problem.
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It seems to be what's developing. The NAF wants the Einsatzgruppens heads on pikes. I can't blame them they're who have been the main characters in all of this. Porkochunko has no control over them.
The pocket will be reduced slowly I guess and there will not be much left of the towns in the area. I hear not all of the civvies are out either. They'll suffer even more.
I keep on watching what's developing. My only concern is that Putin might betray DNRs the last moment and sign some crap with Poroshenko.
In other good news ( from what I see here) is that the deputies of German Bundestag ( some left-minded people apparently) passed 6,000 tonnes of medical supplies to Donetsk and Lugansk hospitals. "We asked people to donate whatever they could for Gorlovka and Donetsk and a lot of people did. We bought medical supplies for these money. We were impressed by how many people in Germany were willing to help. The idea of humanitarian help came to us after visiting refugees camps in Russia."
You all apparently live in some parallel Universe.
Or may be ( just may be) you are just very poorly informed.
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