The future of Ukraine (genetics, teacher, crime, 2015)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Counterintuitive though it may sound, the greater peacefulness of the world may make the attainment of higher rates of economic growth less urgent and thus less likely. This view does not claim that fighting wars improves economies, as of course the actual conflict brings death and destruction. The claim is also distinct from the Keynesian argument that preparing for war lifts government spending and puts people to work. Rather, the very possibility of war focuses the attention of governments on getting some basic decisions right — whether investing in science or simply liberalizing the economy. Such focus ends up improving a nation’s longer-run prospects.
It may seem repugnant to find a positive side to war in this regard, but a look at American history suggests we cannot dismiss the idea so easily. Fundamental innovations such as nuclear power, the computer and the modern aircraft were all pushed along by an American government eager to defeat the Axis powers or, later, to win the Cold War."
Not to mention all those lavish loans given to warring parties, giving great returns on "investment" and benefiting the US bankers. ( Of course this part is conveniently skipped in the article, right?)
But lol, at least someone is taking note that absence of major wars does hurt America.
The bright side of it of course is "no death and destruction," although these deaths and destruction were really taking place elsewhere for the most part.
They enact domestic fiscal stimulus to get everyone to vote for the war. I recall reading about US special forces going into Iraq in early 2002 with the intention of organizing armed rebellions against Saddam Hussein as a pretext for US military intervention, much like they are doing everywhere else now. No one would go for it as they were slaughtered the last time in 1995 and no US military aid was forthcoming.
Re: "Traffic, before we go any further, what's "horrific" consequences?
Were these nations starved to death, burned in crematories in millions, were their children thrown in flames alive, did they lose their national tongues, being forced to speak exclusively the language of brutal invader, what? What was so "horrific" about it, keeping in mind that practically all those "nations" were fighting on Hitler's side and helping an invasion, that had TRULY horrific consequences for many?
As I've said, let's stop using terminology loosely around here, because it mars the picture"
It is all documented in the history books. I tell no lies.
I am not saying that you are lying Travric. I am questioning the way you use your vocabulary.
Quote:
The brutal devastation and deportations and executions and killings done by Stalin's troops to Poles , Ukrainians and those in the Baltics as well as with other sundry nationalities lying in the track of the Russian onslaught.
And speaking about Baltics - here it goes, that you'd understand better why Russians couldn't remain "indifferent" to them;
"The significant aspect of Hitler's view is that he regarded the Baits as being essentially close to the master race, which they might join after certain corrective measures had been taken by the Germans. Hitler further developed his views at a secret speech which he delivered before future Nazi leaders in Sonthofen (Allgäu) in 1937. After attacking the ideas of World War I vintage concerning the establishment of German dynasties in the East, Hitler stated that under German rulers and by infusion of German blood, the Baltic countries, currently have-not states, would have turned prosperous. By becoming assimilated locally, the German rulers would have been in charge of states inimical to Germany. Such states would be particularly dangerous to Germany, since they would be operated by rulers of German extraction, i. e., of superior blood.7"
"The Nazi capitalized on the Estonian quest for the Finno-Ugric ideal rather than pushing them in that direction. Estonian president Konstantin Pats shortly before his arrest by the Soviets on 30 July 1940, produced a document commonly referred to as Pat's political testament. Among other things, Pats suggested the relocation of the Estonian and Finnish borders eastward so they could include the Finno-Ugric minorities. Pats also proposed replacing Estonia's Russian population with racially similar people from Russia proper. According to Pats, the Finns should have carried out a similar resettlement program in Karelia."
( Finnish/Estonian posters here might find this an interesting read; just google "Estonia Hitler's racial policies" and it will bring you to the related to the subject pages of this book; "Racial Science in Hitler's New Europe, 1938-1945." (edited by Rory Yeomans, Anton Weiss-Wendt)
So Travric, to make the long story short, there were reasons for Stalin to regard these nations with suspicion, considering them to be potential German allies and therefore purging them and forcing into submission. ( That's why I referred to Balts as "collateral damage" of the WWII earlier.)
But see, there is a difference between nations/groups of people being targeted for extermination on the basis of solely WHO they are, and thus being burned, gassed, hanged, tortured, starved to death - children and adults alike, and nations being beaten into submission ( with no fear to be eliminated) for a reason being an accomplice to a crime. The first case is horrific, second one is really not, because it was quite common during many wars in history before that. Assigning the same meaning to two different events is what ultimately mars the picture, when we are talking about Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany and WWII.
Quote:
Let's add the killing and imprisonmentof Stalin's own troops simply for being in the lands occupied by Germany.
Don't, because it's a separate issue.
Quote:
Further the degradation done by Stalin's soldier to those liberated by the German occupiers. Some soldiers acted like animals raping and killing the civilian populations. There are memories of that that are still raw. This occurred in Dresden when that city was 'freed'.
If you ask me, Soviet soldiers for the most part showed amazing restraint, keeping in mind that those were the same troops that were passing their lands on the way to Germany, and seeing the horrors inflicted on their own civil population (horrific consequences would be an appropriate description here.) To be honest, one could have expected much, much worse retributions on the enemy's territory. Soviet commandment, however, showed its merciful side; it was not promoting the revenge on civil population.
This witnessing of hard core anti-Russian German officer proves pretty much what I've heard before from older generation on this subject;
"Soon after being handed over to the Soviet armed forces, Hartmann experienced the following:
The first thing the Russians did was to separate the German women and girls from the men. What followed was a brutal orgy of rape and debauchery by Red Army soldiers. When the greatly outnumbered Americans tried to intervene, the Russians charged towards them firing into the air and threatening to kill them if they interfered. The raping continued throughout the night. The next day a Russian General arrived at the encampment and immediately ordered a cessation ... Later when a few Russians violated the order again and assaulted a German girl, she was asked to identify them from a lineup. There were no formalities, no court martial. The guilty parties were immediately hanged in front of all their comrades. The point was made.[41]"
And last but not least which probably was the greatest affect on Europe in the post-war period and continues with us today was the subjugation and 'imprisonment' of various East European countries under the Russian boot. That was Russia's 'gift' to Europe.
No, it was not a "gift;" it was the winner taking advantage of the losing party/ies in war, and making them serve its geopolitical interests. Nothing "horrendous" here again - quite common practice throughout history.
Quote:
The liberation of Europe indeed came with a price
So you want Europe serve Hiter's interests/ not actively resist to him and not to pay any price for it?
Since Russians did all the dirty job, obviously they wanted the payback and then some more.
Quote:
and Europe and the world is still paying for it today.
How exactly?
Quote:
Mr. Putin of course will not acknowledge the terrible wrongs his country did during the war
Who is "Mr. Putin" to "acknowledge" anything?
The minute he'll "acknowledge" anything of this kind, he is as good as dead politically speaking in Russia ( and may be even literally speaking - who knows.)
Quote:
and after thus showing how his grand statements of 'victory' ring so hollow with hypocrisy.
His "grand statements" are really an attempt to be relevant to Russia's glory of 1945. ( Which in reality he has little to do with it, since it was not the country serving American $$$$.) That's why in a way his "grand statements" are indeed hollow with hypocrisy. But not the celebration of the 9th of May itself.
I've learned it since my childhood, in my own family. Great October Socialist Revolution celebrations ( all Communist/Official celebrations in general) could have been frowned upon and mocked. But not the 9th of May. That day was sacred.
Quote:
Yes, Russia came and freed Europe from an oppressor but they too became one and left a great desolation.
"Desolation?" Then who is living in those countries, where all those historic buildings came from and why the local population still speak the same languages?
Quote:
One can only surmise what kind of a Europe we would have seen if Russia's now broken east European 'experiment' went West.
Again - that was not an "experiment." Russia simply used these countries to serve her interests - that's all to it.
Quote:
A tragedy no doubt in the quest to keep democratic freedoms active in the world.
And I'd say, that "democratic countries" should probably learn to not to mess with Russia.
The results are usually quite the opposite to what has been intended.
Stop! This is a snapshot of Wikipedia site that I made and uploaded to this site, in order not to clutter up the forum Cyrillic! This information is from Wikipedia.
But how did you expect me to know all that?
You should have simply said that it WAS in Wikipedia)))) ( I was afraid that I'd miss it; I don't like using Russian Wikipedia in general - they make it difficult to find worthy information; that is if it's there at the first place.)
But back to Chubais...
erasure,
I read the 4 pages of your The Harvard Boys Do Russia link, but nothing in it suggested
planned mismanagement so to harm Russia, as you did put it.
Just (maybe) incompetence, conflict of interests, bad control, wrong strategy.
Let me make the long story short;
Who do you think "American advisers" chose to be "their man" in Yeltsin's government, a man who was saying this;
"It meant simply nothing. It created in Russia criminal capitalism. We got a very important lesson. Karl Popper wrote the book Open Society and Its Enemies [in which] he described two main enemies of open society, which were fascism and communism. In the last 10 years, Russia found out that an open society has one more enemy. This enemy is capitalism which is not limited by laws, by civil institutions, by tradition, by belief, by the judicial system, by trade unions, by nothing -- simply the wild will for profit at any price. That was the key idea of privatization here; that was the key idea of all the changes here. That's why it put Russia into a situation of crony capitalism. It put Russia on the way of an inside-dealing economy.
That's why I was saying privatization first and then, together with it -- together, not after, but at the same time -- price liberalization and things like that. This is a key for the Russian economy. Middle-sized, small businesses, demonopolization, private property on land, legal system, judicial system. It's also institutional change -- private property rights and protecting human rights, and understanding that human rights is in the middle of any kind of policy in the country. This is the beginning of reform."
"Chubais believes that capitalism is the only way for Russia, in spite of the opposite points of view; "You know, I've been re-reading Dostoyevsky during the last three months. And I feel almost physical hatred towards this man. He is undoubtedly a genius, but his opinion about Russians as of chosen, sacred people, his cult of suffering and that false path that he offers, brings an urge in me to shred him to pieces."
a man who right away brought money to Swiss banks -
"While most Russian citizens lost their savings in only a few weeks, a few oligarchs became billionaires by arbitraging the vast difference between old domestic prices for Russian commodities and the prices prevailing on the world market. The people who benefited from this arbitrage became known as "kleptocrats"[10] because they stashed billions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts rather than investing in the Russian economy."
"The differences between my view and the Gaidar view were that I was saying we must be the opponents who are independent from these people, and we must have a dialogue with them, and maybe we could cooperate with them, but as an independent force. The approach from his side and the side of [Anatoly] Chubais, for example, was simply to be the staff of Mr. Yeltsin. That's why Mr. Yeltsin used them, and they brought some money to support the new system. Fifty billion dollars -- that's a pretty big number."
Both were economists in Russian government.
Which one do you think "American advisers" preferred? Make a wild guess.
Or you still think that it was all the result of "incompetence" and "wrong strategy" ?
Erasure, thank you!) this parade was really gret idea.
I was there with my brothers, but older brother is a policeman, so I was looking parade with younger. I saw that people were really happy- they were smiling, laughing. Contrary to the hopes of the Ukrainian side, the threat of terrorist attacks and provocations, people came themselves, nobody forced us.
Transport, as I said, was crowded, we were able to go to the centre only after the third attempt. It was a real celebration for our city. I saw many flags- DNR, Novorossiya, Russia and USSR. Ukrainian symbolism was represented by Ukrainian coat of arms, which one woman carried on a pitchfork. To be honest, I didn't understand this performance. I saw this woman the first time when we were near Lenin square and I decided that it hung in a prominent place and she removed it. But I saw this woman few more times.
Video from parade
Erasure, thank you!) this parade was really gret idea.
I was there with my brothers, but older brother is a policeman, so I was looking parade with younger. I saw that people were really happy- they were smiling, laughing. Contrary to the hopes of the Ukrainian side, the threat of terrorist attacks and provocations, people came themselves, nobody forced us.
Transport, as I said, was crowded, we were able to go to the centre only after the third attempt. It was a real celebration for our city. I saw many flags- DNR, Novorossiya, Russia and USSR. Ukrainian symbolism was represented by Ukrainian coat of arms, which one woman carried on a pitchfork. To be honest, I didn't understand this performance. I saw this woman the first time when we were near Lenin square and I decided that it hung in a prominent place and she removed it. But I saw this woman few more times.
Video from parade
I agree, it was a good idea - to boost moral for civilians after all this shelling, destruction and bomb shelters - to see that you have defenders.
I saw preparations of your parade yesterday and the first post stamp with Givi and Motorola.
Motorola makes an impression of a humorous person by the way - that dry sense of humor you know...
(But he is dead serious obviously, when it comes to "business." Both him and Givi are quiet a characters I have to say... )
Do you expect the new attacks? ( now that Americans officially sent their troops to Western Ukraine ( or wherever they are.)
What's the word? And what do you hear about Mozgovoy in Alchevsk?
From what I read on the "lefties" sites on FB ( they just came back from there, meeting with him,) he is serious about his convictions. Up to a point that he disagrees with Zakharchenko and DNR commandment? Is it a case?
P.S. Selena, regarding the Ukrainian coat of arms - I see on FB that Tzarev is asking to be kinder to Ukrainians. He is saying basically that he understands the current sentiment of hatred to those "who bomb you and kill you," but he is asking to not to forget the human aspect of it all. He is saying "let's not become like some of them."
Erasure, I didn't hear about events in Lugansk until today. Well it's funny to hear that Alchevsk decided to leave LPR. I didn't find any proofs that something like this happened. Also, as I said, Alchevsk is related to Lugansk, so Mozgovoy may be disagree with Plotnitskiy and LPR commandment, but not with Zaharchenko. By the way we support our president, he is regular fellow))
Now LPR and DPR disarm units that have refused to go under the command of our army and primarily it affected the cossacks. There are such rumors.
Few days ago such happened not far from my home. Cossacks fired at police with machine guns and mortars, and so I support the disarmament of such squads. I wrote about it more detailed in my diary.
Mozgovoy was on parade in Alchevsk yesterday and it is obvious that people still support Novorossiya and opolcheniye. In general I am not surprised- Ukrainia media are not interested to tell how we are living here so they invent silly things like drunk Zacharchenko on the parade or Alchevsk which is returning to Ukraine. People from this city say that the site was hacked.
We are waiting for new attacks, tomorrow is the annyversary of declaration of our Republic, so maybe exactly tomorow will happen something.
Usual Ukrainians are not enemies for us, I told about it already- ukrainians kind and hardworking people, I stil have many friends there and they are not screaming about terrorists)) The only one problem is that so called Government in Ukraine is a rabble of people which doesn't know what is honor and dignity and world judges about Ukraine looking at them. They lie, stolen budget and lie again, because all they want- money. I hope other people wont's become like them
Happy May9 Victory in Europe Day to everyone!I went over to Brighton Beach to say thanks to WWII vets. At first only saw 1 vet in uniform w/medals who was being filmed by some crew made up of Americans and I guess Russian translators.I hung around for an hour, was about to leave as the weather was bad, when a whole bunch of vets showed up. Proud soldiers as always.Then, a whole bunch of cars with Russian/Soviet flags drove by.I guess there is no more vet meetings in that concert hall as it was turned into some garrish supermarket.
Re: "And I'd say, that "democratic countries" should probably learn to not to mess with Russia"
And if so it would perhaps see the revitalization of these words statistically prevalent in relation ship to 'Russia' or 'Soviet'
As for 'vocabulary', it is a harsh light shining on thought process flowering through a nation-state state and its political offshoots. So what hath Russia wrought for Europe? Some of these are now going on. Unfortunately same old same old.
'tyranny, anti-democratic, socialism, communism, zomos, totalitarian, Stasi, Berlin Wall, Warsaw Pact, 'iron curtain', politburo, dictator, Cold War, NKVD, martial law, empire, collapse, perestroika, ethnic violence..' nyet nyet', nationality, assimilation, deportation, execution, occupation, de-Stalinization... to name a few.
Others depending on their country's relationship with Russia can no doubt add other worded 'gifts' to 'help' them exist with Russia in Europe. Each no doubt had to deal with something 'special'.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am questioning the way you use your vocabulary. 
)
