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P.S. Not only am I familiar with "Californication", but I witnessed it with my own eyes, slowly but surely.
I still remember very well what state of Washington ( and Oregon) used to be before Californication)))
( Sorry for the poor formatting of my previous post.)
It’s all good, I saw that bit. I think ultimately I have a different/more general definition for colonization than you. I think of it more in the Classical Greek sense where you have a group of people settle other lands that are loyal and uphold their host country/homeland and usually supported/funded by the government, as well as converting local people to your host culture whenever possible. Essentially it’s the act of expanding your ethno-cultural territory by means of settlers. So I don’t think all forms of colonization are equal nor do I add a negative (or positive) connotation to it, and doesn’t necessarily need to be associated with subjugation. Also I get that the Russian empire subjugated everyone including Russians. And I know that Ukrainians weren’t discriminated against on the same level as say the Irish in Great Britain. (After all Ukrainians and Russians share a kinship, while the Irish were thought of as barbarians by the English) But still for better or worse at various times Russia attempted to Russify Ukraine (and mostly succeeded in Belarus), after all Russians just thought of Ukrainian as some distant Russian dialect with Polish influences and needed to be cleaned up and brought back into the fold, similar to how they standardized the other dialects in Russia proper (I’ve heard that Novgorod used to have their own distinct language), they were just continuing that on in Ukraine and Belarus.
It also doesn’t help that Ukrainians were mostly farmers/peasants. And these types of people were near the bottom of the social pecking order, no matter your ethnic background. Now coupled with an independent and identifiable language/culture/identity it is easy to see why Ukrainians would think they were targeted for their Ukrainianes, when in fact it was mostly because they were peasants/farmers. It also doesn’t help that a subconscious link was made between the Ukrainian language and being an uneducated peasant, so often times Ukrainians were looked down upon and thought of as lesser.
Further more just because there are successful minorities of elevated status, doesn’t mean the others didn’t face discrimination, or that even these successful people didn’t either. For instance there are and were many successful black people in the US, even free black men during the times of slavery, doesn’t mean discrimination against black people didn’t or doesn’t exist.
But ultimately all over the world the people that get discriminated are poor people, and even more so if they can be identified via skin color/facial features/language/religion etc. and Ukrainians historically were poor, so of course they would discriminated against.
It’s all good, I saw that bit. I think ultimately I have a different/more general definition for colonization than you. I think of it more in the Classical Greek sense where you have a group of people settle other lands that are loyal and uphold their host country/homeland and usually supported/funded by the government, as well as converting local people to your host culture whenever possible.
This model would be correct for the Western European countries with their colonies overseas.
But Russian approach was different - the "colonial inhabitants" were incorporated directly into Russia, and it's only natural that Russians would try to "russify" them all, to have more homogenous "common culture," in order to avoid threats from other states to use the internal ethnic strife to their own advantage.
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Essentially it’s the act of expanding your ethno-cultural territory by means of settlers. So I don’t think all forms of colonization are equal nor do I add a negative (or positive) connotation to it, and doesn’t necessarily need to be associated with subjugation. Also I get that the Russian empire subjugated everyone including Russians. And I know that Ukrainians weren’t discriminated against on the same level as say the Irish in Great Britain. (After all Ukrainians and Russians share a kinship, while the Irish were thought of as barbarians by the English) But still for better or worse at various times Russia attempted to Russify Ukraine (and mostly succeeded in Belarus), after all Russians just thought of Ukrainian as some distant Russian dialect with Polish influences and needed to be cleaned up and brought back into the fold, similar to how they standardized the other dialects in Russia proper (I’ve heard that Novgorod used to have their own distinct language), they were just continuing that on in Ukraine and Belarus.
I already explained you the practical reasons for that, particularly keeping neighboring Polish state in mind, that wanted ( and still wants) to reclaim those "lost territories" of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. ( I.e. the contest for the lands of Ukraine and Belorussia between Warsaw and MOscow goes back to medieval times.)
And once Russian Empire decided to put the end to this contest, it simply gulped up/partitioned Poland itself.
It's all history Grega.
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It also doesn’t help that Ukrainians were mostly farmers/peasants. And these types of people were near the bottom of the social pecking order, no matter your ethnic background. Now coupled with an independent and identifiable language/culture/identity it is easy to see why Ukrainians would think they were targeted for their Ukrainianes, when in fact it was mostly because they were peasants/farmers. It also doesn’t help that a subconscious link was made between the Ukrainian language and being an uneducated peasant, so often times Ukrainians were looked down upon and thought of as lesser.
I am not sure about that one Grega- check on the statistics of the Russian Empire if you can. I actually think that Ukrainian peasants were fairing better than the Russian ones.
And when it comes to the most impoverished gubernias of the Russian Empire in the European part of the country - it were actually Baltic states from what I remember ( Estonia and Latvia in particular.)
And when it comes to Soviet times - Ukraine was already one of the most prosperous republics starting from the 60ies. ( Of course the fact that Lenin gifted them industrial territories of the "Russia proper" back in 1919, helped Ukrainian economy a great deal. Otherwise they wouldn't have "economy" to speak of (according to Lenin.))
So speaking about the "discrimination" specifically against Ukrainians doesn't make much sense to me.
^^^ yes I understand the reasoning behind the Russification policies, after all that’s the same exact reason why Ukraine is trying to Ukrainianize it’s Russian population so as to secure its borders. (Which you seem to be ok with when the Russians did it, but not ok when Ukrainians do it now, and vice versa for the other side) I’m just trying to look at this from both points of views. Each side has their valid points and the best way to have a constructive dialogue is to show the other side that you understand where they are coming from, even if you ultimately disagree with their conclusion. And as far as the poor vs rich thing. Yes Ukraine was wealthy, but that wealth was in the cities which as I stated earlier was primarily made up of Rusophones, while the Ukrainian speakers were left in the rural areas. The proper Russian language became associated with the educated city people, even though most Russians were also poor peasants, but then again I doubt they were speaking proper Russian either. I’m pretty sure even today rural Russians are looked down upon too (at least by certain segment of the population) and I’m guessing city folk can usually spot them by their mannerisms and their style of speech. But in the end of the day they are still Russian so they can’t hold that as an extra victim card unlike Ukrainians who can make that false equivalency and get the bonus victim card. I know my thinking can sound scattered as I like to look at both sides and play devils advocate. Also yes many of my statements/theories (such as poor Ukrainians) are based off of deductive reasoning and not necessarily backed up by actual research, so as you said maybe the Baltic’s were considerably poorer back during imperial times, but I doubt as those were trading hubs to the outside world so I would think there would be a lot of wealth flowing through there. But then again it was a similar situation where you had the prosperous cities such as Riga populated by Russians, I really don’t know (and Baltic people seem to mention many of the same grievances as Ukrainians so not sure why you are bringing them in as if there were no issues there?). Also as a side note I agree with many of not most things you say Erasure, but when I disagree or feel like there’s more to the story is when I chime in.
You're both making good points but this is mostly an academic discussion about the past. While the past matters, its less relevant to the current and future Ukraine than you seem to realize. Nobody has living memory about life before the USSR. Pre 1917 Russia does not exist anymore than the Austrian empire does (there is still an Austria but its not the same thing). What we have now are the post Soviet states, the biggest being Russia and Ukraine.
The language issue is very much tied to nationalism. I know people disagree with me but I don't believe there are "ethnic" Ukrainians vs Russians. They are the same people, with some mixed heritage as much as Germans or many other peoples in the 21st century are mixed up. Only by language are they "divided". Many in my family over there are half and half and there really isn't a difference at all. I don't like the current situation where language is being used as a tool by either side. Being a good Ukrainian should not mean that you need to communicate in Ukrainian. But now we have a new situation where Russia is in a hybrid war against Ukraine and so things like language matter more than they otherwise should. Back in 2014 when associates of mine were in the conflict they spoke Russian on the battlefield. In 2020, this is not used in the army anymore. Police can and do still speak Russian but maybe not for much longer. A lot of this depends on how and when the conflict wraps up.
And speaking of the conflict, this is much more than just about global alignment and language. It is mostly related to the decline of the donbas economy and how they will deal with change. There is no future for coal in a European aligned Ukraine and outdated/polluting/inefficient factories are also going to die out so I can understand the resistance some people there have to change. But I also see that people there now know that Russia is not going to save their old way of life so they might as well figure out a way to move forward.
The youth don't care about working in a steel factory. The money is in finance and IT and that's what the best students gravitate towards.
Yet another punch in Zelensky face.
No matter how much he was vouching for the candidate of his party to be elected as a mayor of his NATIVE CITY of Krivoy Rog, in spite of his public endorsement, his native city chose a candidate from pro-Russian party instead.
This was a powerful, humiliating message sent to him from his own home base.
You're both making good points but this is mostly an academic discussion about the past. While the past matters, its less relevant to the current and future Ukraine than you seem to realize. Nobody has living memory about life before the USSR. Pre 1917 Russia does not exist anymore than the Austrian empire does (there is still an Austria but its not the same thing). What we have now are the post Soviet states, the biggest being Russia and Ukraine.
You don't seem to realize that the past of Ukraine, what it used to be back in history, determines its future.
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The language issue is very much tied to nationalism. I know people disagree with me but I don't believe there are "ethnic" Ukrainians vs Russians. They are the same people, with some mixed heritage as much as Germans or many other peoples in the 21st century are mixed up. Only by language are they "divided". Many in my family over there are half and half and there really isn't a difference at all. I don't like the current situation where language is being used as a tool by either side.
Of course the issue of language is used by the nationalists, haling from the Westernmost region, who are trying to create the "unified Ukrainian state," that never existed in history.
It's all their wet dreams and sheer stupidity.
And when they are trying to create this "unified state" with claims that it had no historic ties to Russia other than being subjugated by Russians, it's yet another lie, because it was a case only for their westernmost province, that didn't have any ties with the history of the rest of Ukraine.
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Being a good Ukrainian should not mean that you need to communicate in Ukrainian. But now we have a new situation where Russia is in a hybrid war against Ukraine and so things like language matter more than they otherwise should. Back in 2014 when associates of mine were in the conflict they spoke Russian on the battlefield. In 2020, this is not used in the army anymore. Police can and do still speak Russian but maybe not for much longer. A lot of this depends on how and when the conflict wraps up.
It was not Russia that started the whole "language issue."
It were the nationalists, that turned it into a big deal, being as dumb as they are, since it brought the split of the country.
Before that, people were using both languages interchangeably and no one cared, but when the dumb idiots decided to create the state with "the one and only language," denying the true historic past of Ukraine - they dug their own grave.
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And speaking of the conflict, this is much more than just about global alignment and language. It is mostly related to the decline of the donbas economy and how they will deal with change. There is no future for coal in a European aligned Ukraine and outdated/polluting/inefficient factories are also going to die out so I can understand the resistance some people there have to change. But I also see that people there now know that Russia is not going to save their old way of life so they might as well figure out a way to move forward.
The youth don't care about working in a steel factory. The money is in finance and IT and that's what the best students gravitate towards.
They wish.
They can pretend that they are the "Europeans" or "Americans" all they want.
But reality of their dilapidated economy gives them a different hint.
The number of recent college graduates you know in Ukraine is clearly zero. You're knowledge of the IT sector in Ukraine and what the leading IT companies there do, who their clients are, how much they pay, and the increasing number of people employed there is also zero.
Its the largest growth area of their economy again in 2020, mostly due to increasing demand from abroad to work on DevOps/cloud migration projects, and the other growth industry: video games. The 2nd most number of the 200,000 software developers in Ukraine are in Kharkov, which is emerging as the 2nd IT hub of Ukraine, in part thanks to the in-migration of skilled workers from the Russian controlled areas. While old soviet trained factory workers make $150 a month in Donetsk, their nephews on the govt controlled side are making 10 times as much at age 23 working on projects for Siemens. This isn't for everyone, you do need to have education and ability to learn English but its the highest path to good pay in so it attracts the most and the best. This is the same as in Poland, who's success Ukraine is trying to emulate.
The number of recent college graduates you know in Ukraine is clearly zero. You're knowledge of the IT sector in Ukraine and what the leading IT companies there do, who their clients are, how much they pay, and the increasing number of people employed there is also zero.
Its the largest growth area of their economy again in 2020, mostly due to increasing demand from abroad to work on DevOps/cloud migration projects, and the other growth industry: video games. The 2nd most number of the 200,000 software developers in Ukraine are in Kharkov, which is emerging as the 2nd IT hub of Ukraine, in part thanks to the in-migration of skilled workers from the Russian controlled areas. While old soviet trained factory workers make $150 a month in Donetsk, their nephews on the govt controlled side are making 10 times as much at age 23 working on projects for Siemens. This isn't for everyone, you do need to have education and ability to learn English but its the highest path to good pay in so it attracts the most and the best. This is the same as in Poland, who's success Ukraine is trying to emulate.
It's corporations and developers paying slave wages. Taking advantage of people. $1500 a month? That's a joke. Nothing like an oppressed and impoverished population exploit.
According to the Institute of Demography and Social Research of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, people migrate for different periods, and this process is practically not recorded. * Over 20 years, more than 3 million citizens have left Ukraine. The goals are different for everyone, as are the time frames spent in other countries.
Over the past 20 years, large-scale labor migration has been observed in the country, and we very poorly distinguish between labor migration and the one that received the status of stationary - either people left for a month or two or three, or they have been there for many years, and we cannot count them permanent residents of Ukraine. The scale of migration is assessed in different ways, according to our institute, it is about 3 million people, such numbers cannot be neglected, ”said Ella Libanova, academician of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and researcher in the field of socioeconomics, demography and labor economics.
According to Libanova, a new population census and careful registration are needed. Recall that the last time the population was counted in 2001.
According to the Institute of Demography and Social Research of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, people migrate for different periods, and this process is practically not recorded. * Over 20 years, more than 3 million citizens have left Ukraine. The goals are different for everyone, as are the time frames spent in other countries.
Over the past 20 years, large-scale labor migration has been observed in the country, and we very poorly distinguish between labor migration and the one that received the status of stationary - either people left for a month or two or three, or they have been there for many years, and we cannot count them permanent residents of Ukraine. The scale of migration is assessed in different ways, according to our institute, it is about 3 million people, such numbers cannot be neglected, ”said Ella Libanova, academician of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and researcher in the field of socioeconomics, demography and labor economics.
According to Libanova, a new population census and careful registration are needed. Recall that the last time the population was counted in 2001.
The situation is much more sad.The population census has not been conducted and will not be conducted.Demographic data is classified.But, if you look at how many Ghost towns appeared, and no one counted the villages and towns. And if you look at the rate at which new and new abandoned settlements appear and at what rate the remaining ones empty.. It's all very sad. By the way, in 2014, turn to the migration service,is not reduced and there is not only Donetsk,
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