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Yes of course, Russia occupies former Soviet Republics to defend itself from America. That still isn't going to make the people in those countries stop hating Russia for attacking them.
Its night and day between Poland and Ukraine/Russia when it comes to rule of law, or pretty much any way corrupt can use the state to steal citizens money and get away with it. Eastern European states had to take many steps towards proper governance to obtain EU membership. This is the model that most Ukrainians want to follow and is the reason they want this "association agreement". The problem is, this takes much (not all) of the money and power out of hands of the corrupt elite. Where they are entrenched they find ways to fight this.
Look, it's quite understandable that Ukrainians are tired of corruption, that came as the direct result of the "wild capitalism" in the 90ies, and it's understandable that they hope that someone else ( namely EU) will step in and weed it out. Because they THINK that as soon as corruption is weeded out, the next thing EU (or the US) will do, is to greatly improve their living standards.
But the latter is NOT the case.
So while the US is dangling in front of them that carrot, the mantra of "fighting the corruption," that doesn't mean that the living standards of the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians will improve. ( In fact, as the practice shows us, following the usual IMF prescription of the "liberal economy" makes few very rich and the rest - very poor. If you'll ask whether this is the outcome Ukrainians are looking for, the answer is going to be "no," but you conveniently prefer to skip THIS part, don't you?)
See, other than that dangling carrot ( "fighting corruption,") there is obviously a second variable that's missing from the equation, and that's the variable that makes the nations wealthy.
As for the first variable alone, ( eradication of corruption,) it will serve most and utmost the multi-national corporations, making their ways into Ukraine. When it comes to the improvement of the lives of majority of Ukrainians - not so much.
Because if you look at Poland ( that you brought as example yourself, and that "took many steps towards proper governance to obtain EU membership," why is it half of Poland sits in the UK, doing the menial jobs there, instead of living happily ever after, in "properly governed" Poland?
Because people can't survive on the salaries that are offered to them under this "proper governance", comparably to the COL. ( I don't even mention Bulgaria/Romania or the Baltic countries here.) And that's why eastern Europeans keep on simply dying out, under this "proper governance" of yours.
Or take Georgia for example. After the successful fight with corruption, the level of it in Georgia is approximately the same as in mentioned by you Poland.
The result?
Georgia is as poor as ever, without Russia's economic support, (as corrupt as Russia is.)
And that's why all this American mantra, this dangling carrot in front of the hapless Ukrainians consisting of "fight with corruption" is one big lie, a big fluke.
While "fighting corruption" variable is necessary and good, without the second variable, the ultimate goal of lifting the general Ukrainian population out of poverty is not going to be resolved. Far away from it.
But that's what the naive Ukrainians believe in, thus becoming the useful idiots for American military complex, in its fight with Russia.
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Still, slow progress is being made. Even this week they finally launched the EU rules based electricity wholesale market. Now one less way for corrupt "officials" to steal money. Same reason the gas subsidies had to go away too (much to the dismay of Russia).
"To "dismay of Russia?"
Who told you so?
No, it's vice versa, this removal of subsidies play straight in Russia's hands, because that's precisely what makes the lives of Ukrainians even more unbearable and makes them to think twice about the "price of EU alignment," that comes straight out of their pockets. That's what made them in many ways vote against the "liberal reforms" promoted by Poroshenko's government ( backed by the US,) and Russia didn't even have to lift a finger for that.
Yes of course, Russia occupies former Soviet Republics to defend itself from America.
Yes, it's precisely the case - Russia defends its vital geopolitical interests, be they of economic or military nature.
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That still isn't going to make the people in those countries stop hating Russia for attacking them.
And that's understandable too, since in this fight between the US and Russia they become the collateral damage, as the whole of Eastern Europe used to be during the fight between Russia and the "collective West."
(Although In Georgia's case in particular, I'd argue about the accusations of "attacks" from Russia.)
I read some Russian news tonight. They are presenting Ze just as you did a day or 2 ago. That his election was somehow proof that the majority of Ukrainians want to realign with Russia. And they are blaming nationalist forces in Ukraine for making him not do this. Sounds exactly what they said about Trump after he didn't deliver on the sanctions relief. I have no idea how they are going to spin the parliament elections because his party will clearly win and he laid out a pretty strong pro EU course. I'm just going to kick back and wait for that next weekend.
I'm sorry you don't believe in something as straightforward as the relation between corruption and poverty. I don't feel like arguing it anymore but thankfully most Ukrainians now have a brain and see that this style of system robs from the majority of them. Poland's salaries vs. COL isn't the way its presented on Russian news. Its actually better than in Russia itself, let alone Ukraine. People in Warsaw live on 2,000 a month average and their COL is far less than Moscow where salaries are half that. Its as basic as that. Oh but some blogger on Youtube says its bad there! no, sorry this is just nonsense.
And perhaps they'd stop "invading and occupying" neighboring territories as soon as America would have butt out from those territories.
Because it's really not about "those territories," but US trying to take over the world and to take over the geopolitical points that are strategic for Russia. And before you will go on how the "population of those territories" is entitled to "make their choice," and how America offers them "brighter and better future," did America figure out all its internal problems already, before offering that "brighter and better future" to someone else?
I think not.
When it comes to Georgia specifically, I like the question that one of the Russian officials posed on the TV program I currently watch;
"Dear Georgians, if you are so enamored with the US and hate Russia, what problem do you have if Russia decides to follow the shiny US example and treat you the same way as America treats its Southern neighbors - the Mexicans, The Puerto-Ricans, the Cubans?"
See, Georgians tend to think about themselves as *Europeans,* and that they "belong to the club," but do they really?
Who told them so?
Generally speaking, the US offers far more advantages than Russia does. I think even you realize that, but are too stubborn to admit it.
You can take my example if you want. Second generation in the "New World". Went back to the Balkans on numerous occasions. Have absolutely no desire to live there.
DKM is absolutely right in this regard. Association with the West/US is beneficial, even if only for financial gain. Look at the difference between West/East Germany, North/South Korea.
I read some Russian news tonight. They are presenting Ze just as you did a day or 2 ago. That his election was somehow proof that the majority of Ukrainians want to realign with Russia.
What "realign with Russia" are you talking about?
Can you give me the links to the articles please?
I didn't read Russian media lately, but I keep on watching their daily show "60 minutes" and they discuss situation on Donbass there every day.
They are talking about Zelensky's failure to stop the war so far - his promise before being elected, the issue that the majority of his supporters considered the most important.
They didn't talk about any particular "alignments" so far, out in the open.
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And they are blaming nationalist forces in Ukraine for making him not do this.
When they talk about Donbass, they do say that Ze is bending over to the nationalist forces, (which he does,) and Ukrainian sources independently confirm this. The nazi thugs are still ruling the streets and he is afraid of them. It's all true.
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Sounds exactly what they said about Trump after he didn't deliver on the sanctions relief.
I have no idea what they've said about Trump ( or rather his failure to deliver on the sanctions relief.) I simply didn't follow it.
See, my take on it, is that Trump is pretty intuitive guy - he figured out correctly that Putin's Russia didn't represent any danger to America; like him, Putin and Co were out there to "make money" - that's all. It's the Dem. party that's drumming up the war with Russia, since their failure to achieve the original goals in the 90ies. ( Well not all of them of course, but certain fraction, that I refer to as "corporate democrats" - Clinton, Biden et al.) And they were most likely the "stumbling block" for Trump to establish good relations with Russia ( possibly removal of sanctions including.)
But to explain all that to Russians wouldn't serve well the Kremlin propaganda machine, because this would make it to bring to light the multi-party system that's operational in US, while Russians tend to not believe that it's operational for real. Kremlin wants to keep it this way, to make them believe deep down that there is no much difference between current Russian system of governance and Western system of governance ( be that America or Western European countries.)
So I don't know what kind of official explanations they came up with, when it comes to Trump's failure to deliver on the sanctions relief.
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I have no idea how they are going to spin the parliament elections because his party will clearly win and he laid out a pretty strong pro EU course. I'm just going to kick back and wait for that next weekend.
Neither do I, other than that they already made their case clear - so far Ze is no different than Poroshenko, and thus ( I suspect) they want everyone to arrive to certain logical conclusion, when it comes specifically to Donbass. ( Because, as I've said - that's what they can't stop talking about lately.)
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I'm sorry you don't believe in something as straightforward as the relation between corruption and poverty. I don't feel like arguing it anymore but thankfully most Ukrainians now have a brain and see that this style of system robs from the majority of them.
That's not what I've said.
I'll reiterate it for you; eradication of corruption is necessary but insufficient to make a nation wealthy.
See? As short and simple as a math equation.
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Poland's salaries vs. COL isn't the way its presented on Russian news. Its actually better than in Russia itself, let alone Ukraine. People in Warsaw live on 2,000 a month average and their COL is far less than Moscow where salaries are half that. Its as basic as that. Oh but some blogger on Youtube says its bad there! no, sorry this is just nonsense.
Again - I have no idea whether Polish COL is presented on Russian news or not - I suspect rather not, since this yet again would put in a spotlight Russian COL, a discussion that Russian authorities would like to avoid.
But I am asking you a simple question; if things are so great, why so many Poles are sitting in England, and why a a number of Eastern European countries ( Poland including) are trying to snatch as many Ukrainian workers as possible now, once their own people fled elsewhere?
Generally speaking, the US offers far more advantages than Russia does. I think even you realize that, but are too stubborn to admit it.
How come America didn't offer any "advantages" to Georgia for example?
How come it's still Russia that gives some breath of air to Georgian economy?
Where are all these "great American advantages?"
That's what I am talking about.
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You can take my example if you want. Second generation in the "New World". Went back to the Balkans on numerous occasions. Have absolutely no desire to live there.
DKM is absolutely right in this regard. Association with the West/US is beneficial, even if only for financial gain. Look at the difference between West/East Germany, North/South Korea.
Of course it's beneficial for them, when these countries represent any geopolitical interest to the US.
It's all a matter of how much the US is willing to purchase this or that country, and how much it's willing to pay for it.
That's what it boils down to.
Meanwhile in Ukraine... ( no wait, this is already not Ukraine exactly but Italy, because apparently the idiots ( and you know who I am talking about,) just can't stop, and really-really want to be "part of Europe.")
So I didn't pay much attention when Ukrainian nationalists fired the mortar shells at some News channel that they happen to *disagree with,* ( that's downtown Kiev - yeah.)
And I've let it slide when their coolest guy ever, current member of parliament I guess, Dmitry Yarosh
called for seizing Italian citizens in response to the sentencing of some Vitaliy Markov in Italy for 24 years. ( He was pronounced guilty in the death of Italian photographer Andrea Rocchelli few years ago.
After all, the show must go on, right?
But oh noes, there are more exciting news on the horizon, namely -
"Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini said that a probe into a plot by Ukranians to kill him led to the seizure of an air-to-air missile in the northern city of Turin on Monday."
Zelensky personally appealed to Italian court to "return a proud Ukrainian to his motherland. ( Markov that is.)
Tell me please it's all hand of Moscow behind it.
Last edited by erasure; 07-16-2019 at 01:04 PM..
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