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Old 07-10-2019, 06:10 PM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,438,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadym View Post
Why then did Putin oppose economic sanctions against Georgia? Maybe because "sanctions are only for the benefit"?
Because sanctions would hurt georgian people and do what the Nazi nutters there in Georgia want. Create strife and chaos. Most Georgians have a connection with Russia in some form, family or economic being the most prevelent relations. To really go after the Georgian economy is not something to be done lightly.

It would hurt both countries too.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Russia
5,786 posts, read 4,231,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadym View Post
Why then did Putin oppose economic sanctions against Georgia? Maybe because "sanctions are only for the benefit"?
I think he is waiting for a reaction of the Georgian authorities. + He does not want to create a precedent.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:19 AM
 
Location: norway
4 posts, read 1,227 times
Reputation: 15
Have you seen serial Chernobyl?"
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:11 PM
 
26,783 posts, read 22,537,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
There is nothing taking place under Zelenskiy yet because he doesn't have a party in the government. That's what the upcoming elections are for. I know this is all foreign and crazy sounding to people used to the USSR/Putin way of doing things...

There is nothing "foreign and crazy sounding" about what's going on in Ukraine as far as creation ( and re-grouping) of different parties in Ukraine, however you obviously lack adequate sources of information, because plenty of things are happening under Zelensky, the kind that give pretty good indication where the country is heading to.


Quote:
The only people mad at him at this point are the few who thought he was going to lean towards Russia and turn away from Europe.
As the election results showed us, 75% of Ukrainians were voting AGAINST the very course of Poroshenko, that you describe right here.



Quote:
And the people who would have assumed this must have completely ignored his campaign or believed in some fantasy that the Russian speaking part of Ukraine wants to turn away from a European alignment, so somehow imagined Ze represents this idea.
It was not "somehow" - they believed the CHARACTER that Zelensky was playing in the movie.

By now, the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine has learned the PRICE of "European alignment," literally so, by their own pockets. So did the Ukrainian-speaking part, EXCEPT for western-most parts of Ukraine, that flourished the most on the contraband/illegal custom deals through Polish border. And that's the part of Ukraine where Poroshenko still has massive support.

Quote:
He doesn't. The platform who do represent this is the "For Life" party which could get 12 or 13% in the elections, provided the old Soviets turn out.
Yes, Ze is basically "Poroshenko light" - ( or at least is trying to be.) That much is clear by now, he ain't the character from the movie people were voting for.

As for "For Life" and other parties, representing different ideas ( whatever they might be,) - that remains to be seeing, ( as much as the percentage of support given by population.)

Because they are arranging and rearranging their alliances before the election, as everyone else.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:48 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,855,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

As the election results showed us, 75% of Ukrainians were voting AGAINST the very course of Poroshenko, that you describe right here.

This is sad if you believe that. It was his failure to bring the alignment that cost him the election. Ukraine has maybe achieved 10-15% of the things needed to become a European style state. I don't know if Petro thought he was pulling it off and was just clueless, or if he was knowingly faking it, but in no way do Ukrainians believe that he brought them the EU kind of system that he promised to deliver in 2014.

Rehashed for the millionth time, they want their country to be reformed like their neighbors to the west. Laws that apply to everyone, rules for property rights, corruption schemes removed from government policy, etc etc. That's what this was about in Euromaidan and that's what this was about in Ze's election. People don't want their system to be the way it is, they want it better like their neighbors in Poland, Slovakia etc. This will bring them an increase in standards of living, not a gas subsidy for steel mills owned by Russian aligned oligarchs.

This Russian fantasy that the election for president was either for Poroshenko or for Russia alignment is hard to put into words because its just sad that they tried to frame it this way.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:49 PM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,438,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
This is sad if you believe that. It was his failure to bring the alignment that cost him the election. Ukraine has maybe achieved 10-15% of the things needed to become a European style state. I don't know if Petro thought he was pulling it off and was just clueless, or if he was knowingly faking it, but in no way do Ukrainians believe that he brought them the EU kind of system that he promised to deliver in 2014.

Rehashed for the millionth time, they want their country to be reformed like their neighbors to the west. Laws that apply to everyone, rules for property rights, corruption schemes removed from government policy, etc etc. That's what this was about in Euromaidan and that's what this was about in Ze's election. People don't want their system to be the way it is, they want it better like their neighbors in Poland, Slovakia etc. This will bring them an increase in standards of living, not a gas subsidy for steel mills owned by Russian aligned oligarchs.

This Russian fantasy that the election for president was either for Poroshenko or for Russia alignment is hard to put into words because its just sad that they tried to frame it this way.
Have countries like Poland, Latvia and Lithuania solved their problems along those lines yet? I doubt it. Ihonestly don't have time to sleuth it all out either but considering what I see in the west what they're trying to attain, the rule of law and blah blah blah is not going to be any better than what they had before.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:55 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,855,314 times
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Its night and day between Poland and Ukraine/Russia when it comes to rule of law, or pretty much any way corrupt can use the state to steal citizens money and get away with it. Eastern European states had to take many steps towards proper governance to obtain EU membership. This is the model that most Ukrainians want to follow and is the reason they want this "association agreement". The problem is, this takes much (not all) of the money and power out of hands of the corrupt elite. Where they are entrenched they find ways to fight this.

Still, slow progress is being made. Even this week they finally launched the EU rules based electricity wholesale market. Now one less way for corrupt "officials" to steal money. Same reason the gas subsidies had to go away too (much to the dismay of Russia).
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:51 PM
 
26,783 posts, read 22,537,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadym View Post
Why then did Putin oppose economic sanctions against Georgia? Maybe because "sanctions are only for the benefit"?

You REALLY don't know?
You really are not aware of everything that took place and why Putin refused to implement FURTHER sanctions on Georgia?
OK, I'll explain to you, step by step.

When Russian delegation ( as part of Eastern Orthodox international event) arrived to Georgian parliament ( which was allocated for this conference,) and a Russian chairman of that conference ( who was elected to preside over that conference) has been offered ( or rather pointed) to sit at the regular place of the speaker of Georgian Parliament, ( take note - he was not aware of that and he DID NOT choose that place - the Georgians pointed him where to sit,) the anti-Russian riots followed on the streets of Tbilisi, since this conference has been televised in Georgia. The Russian Orthodox delegation barely made out of there alive, couple of them were injured I think, including this very chairman.
The anti-Russian hysteria prompted by Georgian nationalists brought forth the threats and calls "to kill Russians."

Putin responded accordingly, citing the potential danger for his citizens and cancelling all flights from Russia to Georgia, which worked as economic sanction, since Georgia ( being a poor country) receives almost $ 2 billion in revenues from tourism.
The majority of these tourists bringing the money in are Russians, with over a million of them per year, for the last three years. ( Scroll down to statistics here yourself.)
When Georgian government ( being on the shaky ground with nationalists, (as in case with Ukraine,) realized what happened, they changed their rhetoric somewhat, but it was too late.

And of course all the Western propaganda attempts to point that "Russians don't have anything to fear, it's the Russian GOVERNMENT that Georgians hate" didn't do any good.

So yes, the economic sanctions were indeed implemented by Putin, initially so.
The riots didn't calm down in Georgia, and then next event followed, namely - some insignificant Georgian journalist G. Gabunia started his program on the private Rustavi-2 channel in Georgia with expletives addressing Putin "and his dead mother" - let's put it this way. The kind of expletives that your retarded Nazi/soccer fans love to chant on the streets and then some more.

Which gathered the crowd of Georgian protesters in front of that TV station, but already of a different kind. Number one - such behavior (mocking anybody's dead parents) goes against Georgian culture, and number two - they already realized how hurtful the whole ordeal for their country became, and how destructive it was for the very image of their country.
Since that journalist was not in any way condemned by the Georgian officials, the Russian parliament demanded further sanctions against Georgia, such as prohibition of export of Georgian vines and mineral water to Russian market, PLUS prohibition of money wiring from Russia to Georgia, since impoverished Georgia receives a lot of them from Russia, sort of like Mexicans send money to their families from the US. This, of course, was intended to hurt Georgians financially even more.

And that's when Putin refused to endorse THESE sanctions, citing two reasons; number one - he said that responding in such manner to someone as insignificant as this journalist is "unnecessary,"

and number two - he "didn't want Georgian people to suffer any further."

(After all they already live in poverty as it is - it's true, and he still might have a soft spot for them from earlier times; I know I DO.)

So whatever reason out of these two you want to choose - it's your pick, but here it is one more time for you, all the events in details;



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBoleCLENI

Last edited by erasure; 07-11-2019 at 10:00 PM..
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:02 AM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,855,314 times
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There would be a lot less "anti-Russian hysteria" if they stopped invading and occupying neighboring countries.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:50 AM
 
26,783 posts, read 22,537,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
There would be a lot less "anti-Russian hysteria" if they stopped invading and occupying neighboring countries.

And perhaps they'd stop "invading and occupying" neighboring territories as soon as America would have butt out from those territories.
Because it's really not about "those territories," but US trying to take over the world and to take over the geopolitical points that are strategic for Russia.
And before you will go on how the "population of those territories" is entitled to "make their choice," and how America offers them "brighter and better future," did America figure out all its internal problems already, before offering that "brighter and better future" to someone else?

I think not.
When it comes to Georgia specifically, I like the question that one of the Russian officials posed on the TV program I currently watch;
"Dear Georgians, if you are so enamored with the US and hate Russia, what problem do you have if Russia decides to follow the shiny US example and treat you the same way as America treats its Southern neighbors - the Mexicans, The Puerto-Ricans, the Cubans?"


See, Georgians tend to think about themselves as *Europeans,* and that they "belong to the club," but do they really?

Who told them so?
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