The future of Ukraine (crime, best, life, 2014)

[boxus]

Originally Posted by Ariete

The voting turnout was something like 46%.

The whole voting was a farce. No point in denying this.

But whatever. Teaching democracy to a Russian is like teaching a monkey to be an astronaut.

Less of a farce than the current, non-elected Ukrainian president making deals that will impact everyone in Ukraine for years to come, and doing this all while never elected.

Less of a farce than revolting against a fairly elected president, then installing a non-elected official to make decisions for all Ukrainians for years to come.

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Originally Posted by KuuKulgur

Now the "peaceful" locals shot down an Ukrainian helicopter with a grenade launcher.

Yes, about as peaceful as the protesters who ousted Yanukovich, or the new Ukrainian gov sending forces against "terrorists" (yet they call people over throwing a fairly elected president "protesters").

[Wadym]

Originally Posted by Atai J.

You mean Right Sector?

Im talking about ethnic Russians from Russia which represented Kharkivers. That proof, that people with flags of Russia were not from Kharkiv that they have started to sturm the Kharkov Drama Theatre (!), thinking that this building of Major. The board testified about it even in the Ukrainian language, but barbarians to read are not able.
Later Russian have grasped a Building of Kharkiv Regional Administration and required, that Kharkivers must have supported them and have forced our local deputies to vote for accession to Russia. But anybody of them has not come, locals only looked on this "visitor circus" and shoot it on phones. Then some tens of Russian in fury have run out from the Building and have started to beat all at a time, including police officers, that was really terrible demonstration of "russian brotherhood love" (you can easy find a video on YT). Later at night them have surrounded and arrested by the officers of "Alpha"(Ukrainian special forces), have detained about 70 separatists. Now in city calm, as well as will be in Donbass.

[travric]

Less of a farce than the current, non-elected Ukrainian president making deals that will impact everyone in Ukraine for years to come, and doing this all while never elected.

'Impact everyone in Ukraine'. So can I ask why can't Mr. Putin keep his hands in his own pockets? Ukraine is a sovereign state.

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Originally Posted by EUPL

Simply because Putin is a scum bag and it is 2014, not cold war time where he can come into a country and take it.

All coutries were built like that, it being 2014 does not change anything. If a group wants to break away and form their own country, like Kosovo, why should it not be allowed a for a group to break away and join a country?

Originally Posted by EUPL

The Crimea vote was a scam, it was vote to join Russia or vote to join Russia..

No less of a scam than the over throw of an elected president. Civilized countries elect officials out, however, the protesters know they will never get enough votes to place their person in, so they did it by force. The Crimea going to Russia was much mroe epaceful, organized, and legitimate, than the ousting of Yanukovich. If it was a pro-western president that got voerthrown, you would have been stating the opposite.

Originally Posted by EUPL

Look at Poland how it developed after it seperated from Soviets, Poland has emerged as one the best economies in the EU.

Poland has the sixth worse GDP per capita in the EU, and declined in population after everyone fled for Western Europe to the point some countries are trying 9or did?) enact legislation to stop so many Poles from coming in.

Originally Posted by EUPL

You drive from Poland to Ukraine and its like night and day, roads are bad, horrible infastracture, you know why?

Yes, it is night and day, and Poland is much better off. however, you are forgetting that Yanukovich was a fairly elected president, and seems a few people in Ukraine (and the West) do not like democratic processes. Tell me, how much progress did Ukraine make after the Orange revolt? What happens if someone the protesters do not liek gets elected in May; over throw again?

It is also night and day to go from the US to Mexico, your point?

Originally Posted by EUPL

Because Ukraine is still a slave to the gangsters of Russia.

Ukraine has been independent for over 20 years, during that time; two revolts and are almost bankrupt; Ukraine has proven they cannot function as a country.

Originally Posted by EUPL

It needs to end and Ukraine should be allowed to join the EU,

There has never been an offer for them to join the EU, it is not even on the table.

Originally Posted by EUPL

if you dont like it move back to Russia, take you stuff, leave your home and start a new life in this great Russian kingdom but what it looks like is Russias economy will sink faster as faster as their stocks are plunging because Putin wants to play a big black evil bear sacraficing his people and economy.

Russia's economy and quality of lfie is much ebtter than Ukraine's. Russia towers above Ukraine not only in country GDP, but per capita GDP as well. Many Ukrainians work in Russia as that is the only place they can find work.

As for the "move back to Russia" comment; you seem obtuse to facts like;

- these people have lived there long before Ukraine existed as a country, many go back generations before it was a thought;

- the territory lines are artificial, drawn by Soviet leaders in regards to how the lines serve the USSR, not in regards to any individual group or country;

- the same BS Ukrainian nationalists spit out, in that they think Ukraine is just "theirs" and anyone who does not align with tehir ideas should leave. This is why ukraine is so divided now;

- many families are a mixture of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians;

- Many ehtnic Ukrainians are for Yanukovich, he won a fair election in which he got a considerable amount of ethnic Ukrainian votes. I do not know why people think there is some unity in this issue, it is like stating all white people in the US are TEA Party members, when in fact Obama would have never been elected with a considerable amount of whites voting for him.

- the separating from Ukraine movements are a result of those with their stronghold around Kiev ostracizing everyone else in the country, msot importantly the industrial east who would have benefitted from the Russian deal, but dealt a severe blow by the EU deal. West Ukraine politically needs a weak east Ukraine, but still needs its industrial infrastructure to survive as a state.

After two revolts, and this last one overthrowing a president that was fairly elected, many people are just tired of being even attached to Ukraine and the antics from Kiev. If the capital was not Kiev but Dnipropetrovsk for example, you would not have this issue at all as west Ukraine would have considerable less influence. As of now, being close to Kiev gives people easy access for these revolts and demonstrations, while people in the east are working and lack the resources to sit in Kiev and protest for months on end.

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Originally Posted by travric

'Impact everyone in Ukraine'. So can I ask why can't Mr. Putin keep his hands in his own pockets? Ukraine is a sovereign state.

Did anyone ever state Ukraine was not a sovereign state? Serbia was a soveriegn state as well, but that did not keep from the West sponsoring Kosovo breaking away.

And really, Ukraine as a country has failed to demonstrate it can operate as a country. After two revolts and near bankruptcy, why in the world would anyone want to be part of it? If Crimeans want to join Russia, is that more or less legitimate than Kosovo wanting to break free from Serbia? South Sudan from Sudan? Some groups are not meant to be with others, some countries were just not meant to be asembled the way they were. Why wait for a Baklans situation to happen? Why not prevent bloodshed and let people go their own way?

[boxus]

Originally Posted by Wadym

Im talking about ethnic Russians from Russia which represented Kharkivers. That proof, that people with flags of Russia were not from Kharkiv that they have started to sturm the Kharkov Drama Theatre (!), thinking that this building of Major. The board testified about it even in the Ukrainian language, but barbarians to read are not able.
Later Russian have grasped a Building of Kharkiv Regional Administration and required, that Kharkivers must have supported them and have forced our local deputies to vote for accession to Russia. But anybody of them has not come, locals only looked on this "visitor circus" and shoot it on phones. Then some tens of Russian in fury have run out from the Building and have started to beat all at a time, including police officers, that was really terrible demonstration of "russian brotherhood love" (you can easy find a video on YT). Later at night them have surrounded and arrested by the officers of "Alpha"(Ukrainian special forces), have detained about 70 separatists. Now in city calm, as well as will be in Donbass.

No, even as late as 2010 when I was last there, you drive into east Ukraine and you start seeing Russian flags everywhere. By the time you get to Kharkov, it is bascially Russian with little kiosks everywhere promoting unification with Russia.

This is hardly outsiders coming in, these are locals. You seem to forget even Yanukovich captured a sizable number of ethnic Ukrainian votes, many families are mixed, and many Ukrainians do not care much for the antics coming out of Kiev; they rather join a successful country like Russia than sit in a failed state like Ukraine.

[Ariete]

Originally Posted by Atai J.

Do you really believe Putin wants to conquer Europe? Revanchism was a visit card of Hitler. No one in Russia want revanche, it has no sense.

Well I think Estonia and Latvia are quite concerned at the moment.

Originally Posted by Atai J.

Putin's goal is push back NATO as far of russian borders as possible. US would act this way too if the russian forces have military bases in Canada and Mexico.

So what if Finland decides to join NATO? 1300 km of more NATO-border with Russia. Are they going to attack, or do they think they have the right to attack us?

Originally Posted by boxus

.

Are you Russian? I just have to ask. You should apply for a job in the Kremlin.

[erasure]

"Pro-Russia separatists have seized a bus in Slaviansk carrying seven members of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), according to the Ukrainian interior ministry.
"Near the entrance to Slaviansk, unknown persons stopped the bus with 13 passengers including seven OSCE representatives, five representatives of the armed forces of Ukraine and the driver," a ministry spokesman said.'


Security Watchdog Team Seized by Pro-Russia Insurgents in Slaviansk



Question;
Why OSCE observers are riding on the same bus, along with the representatives of the armed forces of Ukraine?
Aren't they suppose to stay neutral and just "observe?"

[WIHS2006]

Nobody is saying that Crimea cannot join Russia, or Kharkov, or Donetsk for that matter ... what we ARE saying is that it must be done via a free and fair referendum where the majority of those registered to vote in that area vote in favor.

The Crimean "referendum" was a sham. The Russians brought in people by the planeload and busload to rig the vote. You know, kinda like how the Democrats give street bums a ham & cheese sandwich and a pack of cigarettes to vote the party line across the ballot.