Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Considering the state of relations between the sexes in the west and the resulting deprivations, chaos and strife in childrens lives I can't see the ways of Islam as being any worse,
Well the "chaos and strife in children's lives" in Afghanistan is 100 times worse than what you see in the West, and this "chaos and strife" come as the result of the radical Islam imposed on the country.
But you think it's OK to keep on imposing it on THAT part of the world ( since you consider Taliban being a good thing.)
The "chaos and strife in children's lives" in the West on another hand, came as the result of broken Christian patriarchal society.
Question; did your teach your daughters ( or wife for this matter) to "submit under their husbands," as it's required in the bible, or to go to Sunday school?
Yes/No?
And if no, then why ( considering that you are concerned for the "chaos and strife in children's lives")
Quote:
it's just focused differently.
We already know why it's "focused differently."
The question is, if you like that kind of *focus,* why are you not familiar with what Catholicism is all about, and why are you not promoting THAT focus in your own family ( if you don't) ?
Quote:
I also don't believe all Muslims practice the extreme forms you are holding up for exhibition.
Of course not.
Azerbaijan for example is the most secular muslim country in the world, after the Russians stayed there for two centuries. ( The Southern part of Azerbaijan on another hand, is still in Islamic republic of Iran, and the experience of women living on both sides of the line is vastly different.
But then, again, the lives of women in Iran were vastly different before the Islamic revolution as well, until the radical Islam settled in.
So was the case with women of Afghanistan.
So it's only a matter of question, when the radical Islam is going to manifest itself in the area.
Quote:
I am not convinced Islam is worse in any way, it's just a different game with the pieces in different places.
Well I already posed you the questions above on this matter, if you consider Islam not being "worse in any case."
On education in schools. I was not educated in religion as a child. It was not part of the curricula. Neither of my parents were religious even though my mom went to church I know it was the sense of community and not to listen to the preacher.
I don't think I understand the mechanism of spirituality in a society. I don't understand how it is used to gain anything for a society other than as a control mechanism. Actually one of many.
It's not religions that shape people (s) it's environments. In Russian character there is a strong tendency for the herd mentality. I think this comes from not just communist principles but a need to work together and depend on one another to survive. Russians have always had a reputation as strong fighters and for a people who seems to be on everyones sights it's justified. I see the same character traits in a lot of Chinese and other Asian peoples.
That whole region ( starting from Ukraine and I suspect even further West) doesn't have the "herd mentality," but rather "communal way of living."
And this of course, predates the Socialist revolution of the 1917; it goes all the way to the traditions of the "Russian mir." then serfdom and so on.
But in case of the originally pagan Russians - they were baptized and underwent the christianization, while the people further East became part of Islamic world. And that's what made huge difference between them, in spite of the similarity in initial "collectivism."
At this point, I am not even talking about the "Orientals," that were practicing totally different religions and philosophies, since China ( and its culture) are much older civilization than the rest in that part of the world from what I remember.
When I am watching Serpentza's videos from China, I can see certain types/similar mentality that I can recognize right away as part of the "Soviet scene" from the USSR, so I can definitely detect some similarities there.
Yet on another hand, there are certain traits in Russians that are completely different from the Chinese.
Russians are far more daring, unpredictable, forcible, blunt and individualistic in a wild way. In fact that "longing for a strong hand/leader" that Westerners often assume to be a sign of the "herd mentality" in Russians, actually comes from the opposite.
If not for a one strong leader, Russians might end up in a total chaos, torn apart by the highly individualistic drive/ideas/and other kind of forces. They recognize this danger, looking at the neighboring Ukraine today for example, and they have a firm belief that the "poor order of things is still better than chaos."
Quote:
Religions are tools. Doctrines and procedures are tools.
Yes they are.
They shape every nation in a certain way, and since the national traits of each and every nation are different to begin with, the combination of the national traits and certain religions bring different results.
Italians are still different from the French, even though both are the Catholic countries ( just an example.)
Quote:
It's these tools that are formed by a requirement imposed on peoples by the world around them. Sometimes for good and sometimes for bad but always out of necessity in some form for some reason.
"The world around" can't impose specifically Catholicism/Protestantism or Islam on peoples.
"The world around" simply can't produce such specific "requirements."
On education in schools. I was not educated in religion as a child. It was not part of the curricula. Neither of my parents were religious even though my mom went to church I know it was the sense of community and not to listen to the preacher.
I don't think I understand the mechanism of spirituality in a society. I don't understand how it is used to gain anything for a society other than as a control mechanism. Actually one of many.
But if you are not aware of those things, then how can you even figure out how Islam stacks up against Christianity?
As for the lives of the children in Afghanistan being 100 times worse from what I know of I seriously don't think it's due to Islam.
British flintlocks, bayonets, cannon, Soviet and American bombs have nothing to do with that? Maybe certain prevailing attitudes outside in the world brings this about?
As I have said before. Leave the Muslims alone. Get out of their world, it is not yours and the pompous asses of the Western world have no right to tell them in any respect how to run their lives. Especially when considering how we run ours.
As for what my daughters were taught they learned by our example of working together to raise them. They also learned from me what a hard working and dedicated father can accomplish along with someone of the same mindset. Religion never entered into it. We taught them how things should be and it appears to have worked even with a stumble here and there.
I guess Russia isn't going to get deeply involved in this.
As for the lives of the children in Afghanistan being 100 times worse from what I know of I seriously don't think it's due to Islam.
British flintlocks, bayonets, cannon, Soviet and American bombs have nothing to do with that? Maybe certain prevailing attitudes outside in the world brings this about? As I have said before. Leave the Muslims alone. Get out of their world, it is not yours and the pompous asses of the Western world have no right to tell them in any respect how to run their lives. Especially when considering how we run ours.
Here is the problem.
If you'll leave them alone, that doesn't mean that THEY will leave you alone ( as you'd assume.)
Oh no, far away from it.
"In classical Islamic law, the major divisions are dar al-islam (lit. territory of Islam/voluntary submission to God), denoting regions where Islamic law prevails,[1]dar al-sulh (lit. territory of treaty) denoting non-Islamic lands which have concluded an armistice with a Muslim government,[2] and dar al-harb (lit. territory of war), denoting adjoining non-Islamic lands whose rulers are called upon to accept Islam.[3]
The Arabic singular form dar (دار), translated literally, may mean "house", "abode", "structure", "place", "land", or "country". In Islamic jurisprudence it often refers to a part of the world..
Early Islamic jurists devised these terms to denote legal rulings for ongoing Muslim conquests almost a century after Muhammad. The first use of the terms was in Iraq by Abu Hanifa and his disciples Abu Yusuf and Al-Shaybani. Among those in the Levant, Al-Awza'i was leading in this discipline and later Shafi'i."
And that's why you see Islam and its laws currently in Iran, Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and in Central Asia to name the few.
In order to make things even more clear - let me quote you this in addition;
"THE idea of perpetual war between Muslims and non-Muslims is held by jihadists who commit acts of terrorism in the name of jihad. A corollary to this idea is the concept of Dar Al-Islam (Land of Islam) and Dar Al-Harb (Land of War). In the jihadists’ mind, Dar Al- Islam refers to a land ruled by a Muslim ruler and the Shari’ah is held as the rule of the land. In contrast, a land is considered as Dar Al-Harb when it is ruled by non-Muslim or when the Shari’ah is not recognised as the rule of the land.
Admittedly, the concept of Dar Al-Islam and Dar Al-Harb has its roots in the works of the classical scholars, which often become the source of reference for jihadists. According to jihadists, however, the use of Dar Al-Harb as a terminology to describe non-Muslim land by classical Muslim scholars suggests that all such lands should be considered as at war until they come under the rule of Dar Al-Islam. Jihadists’ wholesale application of the concept in today’s context without recognising it as time-bound, and their juxtaposition of the concept and the idea of jihad as a perpetual war against non-Muslims, strengthen their binary perspective of “either you are with us or against us”. This unfortunately contributes to painting Islam as a simplistic religion that sees “others” with hostility."
And now think for a moment that people with this mindset are not only among the "Islamic warriors" out in the field, but among their government reps as well.
So the aggressive nature of Islam is encoded in its very essence.
And that's why it has spread around the world throughout history, with the help of "fire and sword."
And this happened way before "British bayonets" and the "Russian bombing."
And I assure you, it won't stop reclaiming lands that Islam lost to the Russians or whoever.
It will ALWAYS try to make the inroads back where it once choked the population like an anaconda.
Afghanistan is the latest example of it.
Quote:
As for what my daughters were taught they learned by our example of working together to raise them. They also learned from me what a hard working and dedicated father can accomplish along with someone of the same mindset. Religion never entered into it. We taught them how things should be and it appears to have worked even with a stumble here and there.
From everything I see in America, everyone ( in schools and elsewhere) is teaching American children "how to get along."
Your family is not an exception I see.
Yet as you've noted yourself, "chaos and strife" still prevail in the lives of American children.
Therefore "teaching how to get along," doesn't cut it.
So if you like the results of Islamic faith, you HAVE to start enforcing the rules of the Catholicism in society, starting from your own family.
That's the only way to prevent the "chaos and strife" in the lives of American children, and to restore the "law and order" in the society in general.
There is no way around it.
Quote:
I guess Russia isn't going to get deeply involved in this.
Of course it will.
Behind the scene most likely.
Russia doesn't need potential Islamic terrorism in her backyard, that will spread further into her lands, with thousands of migrants from Central Asia. ( Not to mention the Northern Caucasus, Chechnya in particular.)
"In classical Islamic law, the major divisions are dar al-islam (lit. territory of Islam/voluntary submission to God), denoting regions where Islamic law prevails,[1]dar al-sulh (lit. territory of treaty) denoting non-Islamic lands which have concluded an armistice with a Muslim government,[2] and dar al-harb (lit. territory of war), denoting adjoining non-Islamic lands whose rulers are called upon to accept Islam.[3]
The Arabic singular form dar (دار), translated literally, may mean "house", "abode", "structure", "place", "land", or "country". In Islamic jurisprudence it often refers to a part of the world..
Early Islamic jurists devised these terms to denote legal rulings for ongoing Muslim conquests almost a century after Muhammad. The first use of the terms was in Iraq by Abu Hanifa and his disciples Abu Yusuf and Al-Shaybani. Among those in the Levant, Al-Awza'i was leading in this discipline and later Shafi'i."
And that's why you see Islam and its laws currently in Iran, Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and in Central Asia to name the few.
In order to make things even more clear - let me quote you this in addition;
"THE idea of perpetual war between Muslims and non-Muslims is held by jihadists who commit acts of terrorism in the name of jihad. A corollary to this idea is the concept of Dar Al-Islam (Land of Islam) and Dar Al-Harb (Land of War). In the jihadists’ mind, Dar Al- Islam refers to a land ruled by a Muslim ruler and the Shari’ah is held as the rule of the land. In contrast, a land is considered as Dar Al-Harb when it is ruled by non-Muslim or when the Shari’ah is not recognised as the rule of the land.
Admittedly, the concept of Dar Al-Islam and Dar Al-Harb has its roots in the works of the classical scholars, which often become the source of reference for jihadists. According to jihadists, however, the use of Dar Al-Harb as a terminology to describe non-Muslim land by classical Muslim scholars suggests that all such lands should be considered as at war until they come under the rule of Dar Al-Islam. Jihadists’ wholesale application of the concept in today’s context without recognising it as time-bound, and their juxtaposition of the concept and the idea of jihad as a perpetual war against non-Muslims, strengthen their binary perspective of “either you are with us or against us”. This unfortunately contributes to painting Islam as a simplistic religion that sees “others” with hostility."
And now think for a moment that people with this mindset are not only among the "Islamic warriors" out in the field, but among their government reps as well.
So the aggressive nature of Islam is encoded in its very essence.
And that's why it has spread around the world throughout history, with the help of "fire and sword."
And this happened way before "British bayonets" and the "Russian bombing."
And I assure you, it won't stop reclaiming lands that Islam lost to the Russians or whoever.
It will ALWAYS try to make the inroads back where it once choked the population like an anaconda.
Afghanistan is the latest example of it.
From everything I see in America, everyone ( in schools and elsewhere) is teaching American children "how to get along."
Your family is not an exception I see.
Yet as you've noted yourself, "chaos and strife" still prevail in the lives of American children.
Therefore "teaching how to get along," doesn't cut it.
So if you like the results of Islamic faith, you HAVE to start enforcing the rules of the Catholicism in society, starting from your own family.
That's the only way to prevent the "chaos and strife" in the lives of American children, and to restore the "law and order" in the society in general.
There is no way around it.
Of course it will.
Behind the scene most likely.
Russia doesn't need potential Islamic terrorism in her backyard, that will spread further into her lands, with thousands of migrants from Central Asia. ( Not to mention the Northern Caucasus, Chechnya in particular.)
Russians are no fools.
Not that I understand in these sorts of sh*t, but here they are in more details;
"In classical Islamic law, the major divisions are dar al-islam (lit. territory of Islam/voluntary submission to God), denoting regions where Islamic law prevails,[1]dar al-sulh (lit. territory of treaty) denoting non-Islamic lands which have concluded an armistice with a Muslim government,[2] and dar al-harb (lit. territory of war), denoting adjoining non-Islamic lands whose rulers are called upon to accept Islam.[3]
The Arabic singular form dar (دار), translated literally, may mean "house", "abode", "structure", "place", "land", or "country". In Islamic jurisprudence it often refers to a part of the world..
Early Islamic jurists devised these terms to denote legal rulings for ongoing Muslim conquests almost a century after Muhammad. The first use of the terms was in Iraq by Abu Hanifa and his disciples Abu Yusuf and Al-Shaybani. Among those in the Levant, Al-Awza'i was leading in this discipline and later Shafi'i."
And that's why you see Islam and its laws currently in Iran, Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and in Central Asia to name the few.
In order to make things even more clear - let me quote you this in addition;
"THE idea of perpetual war between Muslims and non-Muslims is held by jihadists who commit acts of terrorism in the name of jihad. A corollary to this idea is the concept of Dar Al-Islam (Land of Islam) and Dar Al-Harb (Land of War). In the jihadists’ mind, Dar Al- Islam refers to a land ruled by a Muslim ruler and the Shari’ah is held as the rule of the land. In contrast, a land is considered as Dar Al-Harb when it is ruled by non-Muslim or when the Shari’ah is not recognised as the rule of the land.
Admittedly, the concept of Dar Al-Islam and Dar Al-Harb has its roots in the works of the classical scholars, which often become the source of reference for jihadists. According to jihadists, however, the use of Dar Al-Harb as a terminology to describe non-Muslim land by classical Muslim scholars suggests that all such lands should be considered as at war until they come under the rule of Dar Al-Islam. Jihadists’ wholesale application of the concept in today’s context without recognising it as time-bound, and their juxtaposition of the concept and the idea of jihad as a perpetual war against non-Muslims, strengthen their binary perspective of “either you are with us or against us”. This unfortunately contributes to painting Islam as a simplistic religion that sees “others” with hostility."
And now think for a moment that people with this mindset are not only among the "Islamic warriors" out in the field, but among their government reps as well.
So the aggressive nature of Islam is encoded in its very essence.
And that's why it has spread around the world throughout history, with the help of "fire and sword."
And this happened way before "British bayonets" and the "Russian bombing."
And I assure you, it won't stop reclaiming lands that Islam lost to the Russians or whoever.
It will ALWAYS try to make the inroads back where it once choked the population like an anaconda.
Afghanistan is the latest example of it.
From everything I see in America, everyone ( in schools and elsewhere) is teaching American children "how to get along."
Your family is not an exception I see.
Yet as you've noted yourself, "chaos and strife" still prevail in the lives of American children.
Therefore "teaching how to get along," doesn't cut it.
So if you like the results of Islamic faith, you HAVE to start enforcing the rules of the Catholicism in society, starting from your own family.
That's the only way to prevent the "chaos and strife" in the lives of American children, and to restore the "law and order" in the society in general.
There is no way around it.
Of course it will.
Behind the scene most likely.
Russia doesn't need potential Islamic terrorism in her backyard, that will spread further into her lands, with thousands of migrants from Central Asia. ( Not to mention the Northern Caucasus, Chechnya in particular.)
Russians are no fools.
If the 2 great tribes cannot leave one another alone then humanity will continue the path it is on.
This is not a new thing.
I think you will agree that a lot of my thinking is idealistic and more hopeful than realistic. I am aware of that.
I did not teach my daughters to get along. I taught them about their personal agencies. How they were on one level individuals but part of a community on another. In that community there would always be people who were not to be trusted, to be watched and dealt with harshly if need be.
Once again though I will say rightly that the Muslim world is no worse than any other. We're just Great Apes that fell out of a tree at the end of the day.
In the big picture I see nothing changing.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
