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Old 04-16-2020, 10:59 PM
 
4,624 posts, read 9,302,210 times
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Apparently Gilead Sciences has a therapeutic drug that has helped a small sampling of patients recover "rapidly". The stock has soared after hours and the market as a whole is up as well due to the news. Hopefully they expand the trials quickly and find out if this thing works.
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:06 AM
 
2,775 posts, read 5,742,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asufan View Post
Apparently Gilead Sciences has a therapeutic drug that has helped a small sampling of patients recover "rapidly". The stock has soared after hours and the market as a whole is up as well due to the news. Hopefully they expand the trials quickly and find out if this thing works.
Gilead already sprayed a little cold water on the story (but it's a start):
"We understand the urgent need for a Covid-19 treatment and the resulting interest in data on our investigational antiviral drug remdesivir. The totality of the data need to be analysed in order to draw any conclusions from the trial."


"Anecdotal reports, while encouraging, do not provide the statistical power necessary to determine the safety and efficacy profile of remdesivir as a treatment for Covid-19. We expect the data from our Phase 3 study in patients with severe Covid-19 infection to be available at the end of this month, and additional data from other studies to become available in May."
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Old 04-17-2020, 05:37 AM
 
9,825 posts, read 11,237,795 times
Reputation: 8513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning Madolf;57868369[B
]Gilead already sprayed a little cold water on the story[/b] (but it's a start):
"We understand the urgent need for a Covid-19 treatment and the resulting interest in data on our investigational antiviral drug remdesivir. The totality of the data need to be analysed in order to draw any conclusions from the trial."


"Anecdotal reports, while encouraging, do not provide the statistical power necessary to determine the safety and efficacy profile of remdesivir as a treatment for Covid-19. We expect the data from our Phase 3 study in patients with severe Covid-19 infection to be available at the end of this month, and additional data from other studies to become available in May."
The cold water was because of this sentence in the article: “It’s always hard,” she said, because the severe trial doesn’t include a placebo group for comparison. "

That's because the company understands the incredible power of believing (and what happens to the brain) also known as the placebo effect. Everyone has heard of the term. But I never realized the full context until my son explained. It's literally the power of self-healing. i.e. our mind mimics the effects of real medical treatments which is crazy cool. The stats are staggering and most researchers say if you believe the impact helps, the performance increase all by itself is a 30% gain. And when it comes to pain, the actual improvement (which can be observed by looking at the brain verifying self-healing) can be up to 60%. To put it in context, IF you believe a name brand pain killer words better than a generic, it factually does for you because you believe it. To reiterate, researchers can and have mapped the brain using modern neuroimaging techniques proving that chemically identical drugs work differently when you think they actually do.

In the COVID case, potentially this is a genuine drug. Even then, it could have been found to be much more effective if a person knows they are being given the drug, rather than the drug being given without the person’s knowledge. In this case, the placebo effect can be viewed as assisting a genuine intervention. So if it does good, then knowing that you took it helps. In order for a drug to be approved by the FDA, the benchmark is that it needs to outperform the placebo.

This one is worth the read: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...placebo-effect . In it, Robert Buckman, a clinical oncologist and professor of medicine, concludes that:

Placebos are extraordinary drugs. They seem to have some effect on almost every symptom known to mankind, and work in at least a third of patients and sometimes in up to 60 percent. They have no serious side-effects and cannot be given in overdose. In short, they hold the prize for the most adaptable, protean, effective, safe and cheap drugs in the world’s pharmacopeia.

Last point. We now can see the power of praying as it related to the Placebo Effect. If you actually think your God can heal, guess what? You can be healed. So God isn't helping: rather you helped yourself via the Placebo Effect. Powerful stuff! These are a lot of words to explain why cold water was applied. Because she realizes better than anyone that her trials had no placebo treatment. Therefore, she is cautiously optimistic.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:11 AM
 
Location: North Scottsdale/San Diego
811 posts, read 625,490 times
Reputation: 2315
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
The cold water was because of this sentence in the article: “It’s always hard,” she said, because the severe trial doesn’t include a placebo group for comparison. "

That's because the company understands the incredible power of believing (and what happens to the brain) also known as the placebo effect. Everyone has heard of the term. But I never realized the full context until my son explained. It's literally the power of self-healing. i.e. our mind mimics the effects of real medical treatments which is crazy cool. The stats are staggering and most researchers say if you believe the impact helps, the performance increase all by itself is a 30% gain. And when it comes to pain, the actual improvement (which can be observed by looking at the brain verifying self-healing) can be up to 60%. To put it in context, IF you believe a name brand pain killer words better than a generic, it factually does for you because you believe it. To reiterate, researchers can and have mapped the brain using modern neuroimaging techniques proving that chemically identical drugs work differently when you think they actually do.

In the COVID case, potentially this is a genuine drug. Even then, it could have been found to be much more effective if a person knows they are being given the drug, rather than the drug being given without the person’s knowledge. In this case, the placebo effect can be viewed as assisting a genuine intervention. So if it does good, then knowing that you took it helps. In order for a drug to be approved by the FDA, the benchmark is that it needs to outperform the placebo.

This one is worth the read: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...placebo-effect . In it, Robert Buckman, a clinical oncologist and professor of medicine, concludes that:

Placebos are extraordinary drugs. They seem to have some effect on almost every symptom known to mankind, and work in at least a third of patients and sometimes in up to 60 percent. They have no serious side-effects and cannot be given in overdose. In short, they hold the prize for the most adaptable, protean, effective, safe and cheap drugs in the world’s pharmacopeia.

Last point. We now can see the power of praying as it related to the Placebo Effect. If you actually think your God can heal, guess what? You can be healed. So God isn't helping: rather you helped yourself via the Placebo Effect. Powerful stuff! These are a lot of words to explain why cold water was applied. Because she realizes better than anyone that her trials had no placebo treatment. Therefore, she is cautiously optimistic.
I firmly believe this. I am absolutely convinced that good beer will stave off this plague; why I'm staying on a sensible diet of Hazy IPA right now.

I've seen it work the other way as well. When someone wants to be sick in order to avoid a circumstance that they believe is worse (school, test, work, meeting, court date, etc.) their psyche is a willing participant in driving their physical health downward.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:35 AM
 
9,825 posts, read 11,237,795 times
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Originally Posted by Elna Rae View Post

I've seen it work the other way as well. When someone wants to be sick in order to avoid a circumstance that they believe is worse (school, test, work, meeting, court date, etc.) their psyche is a willing participant in driving their physical health downward.
Actually, you are right. It's called the "nocebo effect". https://www.webmd.com/balance/featur...-your-health#1

Re: your beer tongue-and-cheek comment. Once I get out of self-isolation mode, I'm cutting out my binge weekend drinking at the lake even though Like Bret Kavanaugh, I really enjoy beer. If you haven't tried a Summer Shanty beer, give it a try! I digress.. Read https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sk/5143321002/ . Alcohol weakens the bodies immune system. Therefore, I'm going to push "pause" on the beer drinking for a couple of years. Even though I want to believe it really helps.

You must have an "interesting" demographic of people you manage. I'm exposed to the exact opposite type of personality in my line of work as well as our children's friends.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:10 AM
 
Location: North Scottsdale/San Diego
811 posts, read 625,490 times
Reputation: 2315
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised View Post
You must have an "interesting" demographic of people you manage. I'm exposed to the exact opposite type of personality in my line of work as well as our children's friends.

You live a sheltered life.

You know all of those people who swarmed the lakes and defied isolation advice? And those people who spend every penny of their paychecks on hedonistic, worthless frivolities?
For better or worse, that's the demographic from which we have to hire from. Don't get me wrong; there are exceptions.
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Old 04-17-2020, 08:27 AM
 
9,825 posts, read 11,237,795 times
Reputation: 8513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elna Rae View Post
You live a sheltered life.

You know all of those people who swarmed the lakes and defied isolation advice? And those people who spend every penny of their paychecks on hedonistic, worthless frivolities?
For better or worse, that's the demographic from which we have to hire from. Don't get me wrong; there are exceptions.
After reflecting some, I suppose you are right. I recommend binge-watching the Netflix series "Ozark". The locals up in Northern MN (not the area code "612'ers" that come from the Cities) are rather "interesting folks". And very much like some of the characters in Ozark. And if I am being honest, I see some less than idea types here in Surprise. So I stand corrected. Though I do my best to stay clear of this sort of mentality. In my personal cocoon, I like to hang with higher performers as they are much more interesting.
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Old 04-17-2020, 08:53 AM
 
525 posts, read 542,014 times
Reputation: 736
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Originally Posted by llowllevellowll View Post
I'm a fan of re-opening because we're all going to get the virus anyway and I'm simply tired of people not knowing what to do with themselves when they're not being robots at their place of employment, however...

No matter how many people explain this part to you in previous pages, you're still not understanding why that makes zero sense. The virus passes asymptomatically. You would have infected the elderly because we out in society would have passed it to them whether we realized we had it or not (and unless the elderly are taking care of themselves or one another, we're going to give it to them). So, if you we were going to stay working and never shut down, there's almost no reason to socially distance or to hide our elderly and people with underlying conditions. It's foolish.

Remember in Breaking Bad where Mike tells Walt, "That was a half measure when what we needed was a full measure. I'll never make that mistake again." That's what the United States failed to do properly. We've done half-measures and kept this thing alive and prolonged the economic agony. We should have shut down all international flights, locked down borders, closed everything, and went full-on totalitarianism on people and we'd be back up and running and dealing with secondary waves. Instead, we're well behind the 8-ball because we all ran in different directions without a unified front while other countries are indeed re-opening. Our lack of leadership and our great divide ideologically in this country -- we can thank that for our own incompetence.

And no matter how much it is explained to you, we don't know enough about asymptomatic people to know if it makes much of an impact. A year from now with more data, science could come to the conclusion that "You know asymptomatic people really didn't spread the Coronoavirus as much as we thought and weren't that contagious." I on'y floated it as a theory--not a concrete conclusion.

And comparing us to other countries is futile. We are the 3rd largest country in the world. Yeah, Denmark is reopening. So what? Their whole population is less than Arizona. International flights were closed to China at the end of January and everyone was saying that was racist. Travel to Europe was banned at the beginning of March and everyone was having a fit. Borders were closed to Mexico and everyone called "futile." We aren't a totalitarian regime and people would have never ever stood for that approach. If you want that, go to North Korea. People are already protesting because they think the restrictions are too much. I fear mental health and the collapse of the economy alot more then I do this virus.

Remember that time on NBC News at the end of February when Fauci tells the reporter "At this time, there is no need to change your habits over the Coronavirus." Is this the "leadership" you speak of?

Last edited by belgirl; 04-17-2020 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 04-17-2020, 10:24 AM
 
9,825 posts, read 11,237,795 times
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Originally Posted by belgirl View Post
And no matter how much it is explained to you, we don't know enough about asymptomatic people to know if it makes much of an impact. A year from now with more data, science could come to the conclusion that "You know asymptomatic people really didn't spread the Coronoavirus as much as we thought and weren't that contagious." I on'y floated it as a theory--not a concrete conclusion.

And comparing us to other countries is futile. We are the 3rd largest country in the world. Yeah, Denmark is reopening. So what? Their whole population is less than Arizona. International flights were closed to China at the end of January and everyone was saying that was racist. Travel to Europe was banned at the beginning of March and everyone was having a fit. Borders were closed to Mexico and everyone called "futile." We aren't a totalitarian regime and people would have never ever stood for that approach. If you want that, go to North Korea. People are already protesting because they think the restrictions are too much. I fear mental health and the collapse of the economy alot more then I do this virus.

Remember that time on NBC News at the end of February when Fauci tells the reporter "At this time, there is no need to change your habits over the Coronavirus." Is this the "leadership" you speak of?
Anytime a topic is controversial, there are legitimate points on both sides. So by definition, I agree with a lot of what you said as I do with part of other "lock-down" approaches. If I owned a company that had a massive impact (as in I could lose it all), I know exactly what side of the fence I would fall on. If I was 75 and retired, I too know what I would be erroring towards which is a lot different if I was young and female. I could paint 30 other examples and I promise you, we are all biased.

Hindsight is always 20-20. Leadership did some controversial things that later proved to be brilliant (shutting down flights from China). And they also did some dimwit moves by being in denial for a long time or giving away masks to China (I can go on and on).

But look at your own words in your post: Fauci tells the reporter "At this time.... Yea, at that time that's the way it looked. If you are looking forward to perfection, that's impossible. So yes, I would consider Fauci's leadership exceptional. He feeds his opinion to the Prez and governors that we voted in and those leaders to take it from there.

While I was critical of Ducey, it seems as though he would have hurt more businesses if they took an early CA approach. So it seems he was right (even by accident). Maybe even waiting longer to close things up. No, I don't exect a 75 year old in Sun City to agree with this POV.

Back to CA. But, AZ is in a different classification> 1. not a lot of virus "seeds" planted like China planes that flew in left and right into CA and 2. Not on top of one another.
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Old 04-17-2020, 02:29 PM
 
2 posts, read 388 times
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god keep us
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