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The music is what it is...they're not doing anything but showing us who we are.
It doesn't mean you don't control those urges.
Here is some music with very similar contents but from entirely different cultures
N'aam Qatil is particularly beautiful as it's supposed to be chanted when you're under siege. The song has synthesized gun fire and explosions, all of which would be real for the people chanting this song. Its message is that any man who dies but doesn't fight is not a man, and a hypocrite. The people singing that song generally expect to die shortly thereafter.
Then he becomes a folk hero and a martyr when he's up for murder.
Pathetic.
Exactly, honestly he only got this level of popularity solely because of the murder. It helped him more than it hurt him, and know he's being glorified for it. Ridiculous.
I can take that argument and run with it, look at Wiz Khalifa. When I was in high-school I'd smoke daily (yeah I know, its bad) but once Wiz Khalifa got on the scene the friends that I'd smoke with, wanted to smoke far more exotic herbs. We weren't even thinking about trying OG Kush until he said it was his favorite. Or what about this new found 'Molly' fad? I'm positive some well-known celebrity (possibly a rapper) has made it extremely popular to the inner-city youth. I've had friends who have used them for years who are genuinely pissed that its become popular.
So what I'm saying now is, that famous people have influence; they can use it to be more positive or more negative. Its not just about violence with guns as I said above because it can be increased drug use, increased woman battering, etc. And yes, there are different forms of violence. If someone breaks into your home and you shoot them technically its 'violence' and you have murdered someone, but if you step outside your home, take out a .45 and shoot whoever passes by you are having a different form of violence. I guess I'll just label 'offensive violence' vs. 'defensive violence'. The music I speak on is offensive violence, violence that is just created out of thin air just to make a few thousand dollars. That's not good, in my opinion. Talking about cutting someone up for no reason isn't what we need to hear, or better yet hearing anybody talking about cutting someone up, but I'd rather hear someone talk about cutting somebody up because that person messed with their family.
Music and entertainment can influence youth but I doubt it really leads to people killing each other. It does happen but not a lot. Smoking weed and violence are two different things. If your 14 years old and your favorite rapper is talking about smoking weed all the time your gonna be curious to try it but if your favorite rapper is talking about killing people I doubt your gonna start being curious about killing someone. Again some murders can probably be attributed to rap but not enough to really see a noticable difference in the homicide rate. Most homicides occur over drug wars (drug turf, deal gone bad, etc..). Murder often comes down to money and they are kind of like business decisions by local crews. "If we off this guy we get more money comming our way". Even if the music didn't glorify killings they'd still probably kill the guy anyway because they want the money.
I wouldn't consider Gucci Mane "real" either. Just because he murdered someone does not make him real. Being 'real' is exactly that, its being real. Someone who acts the way they naturally act is real. He may not neccessarily be putting up a fake facade like say Rick Ross but he's pushing his "gangster" persona farther then it really is. Most rappers now are brands, they're corperate pawns which is probably as far from real as you can get. The "real" rappers are the ones who talk about everyday problems because there talking about real stuff that happens to real everyday people. That's what rap was about in the beginning, presenting issues that were going on in the minority communities. In the contexts of Hip Hop guys like Immortal Technique talking about actual matters are real. Heck, listening to half these rappers now you wouldn't even think anything bad is going on in the hood because all they talk about is how much money, girls, and weed they have. Tupac must be rolling in his grave.
Last edited by eagles123; 01-17-2013 at 03:22 AM..
I agree and disagree, BMOREBOY. The music itself is not the reason for violence, but it does glorify a lifestyle which excuses or gives voice to violence and degradation. It's the same with dancehall reggae music; both dancehall & hip-hop used to glorify positivity or at least offer a positive alternative, now it's the lowest-common-denominator with the justification of "reality"...at some point, it reaches a chicken/egg situation.
But I graduated from high-school in 2010, so I'm still fairly hip to what everyone listens to. I didn't hang with one way race or economic group more than the other, meaning I was fairly diverse; I hung with Caucasians of high-incomes, and they didn't listen to Gucci Mane but instead Lil Wayne. I had black friends as well of high-incomes and low-incomes, the low income didn't really listen to Lil Wayne but instead Gucci Mane, Lil Boosie, Slim Dunkin', Etc, while the upper-income seemed to listen to Drake, Lil Wayne, and sometimes Gucci Mane but only his radio-singles not mixtapes. I'm from Baltimore, lived there most of my life so I'm fairly knowledgeable about the inner-city. I've posted stories here on several occasions about visiting the projects and getting into fights, I know that lifestyle and it gets old after a while or in my case, once one of my friends were killed. I knew real gang-members and they didn't respect Lil Wayne nearly as much as Gucci Mane. Jeezy is a different story, people still listen to him and he's a bit more relevant in comparison to Gucci Mane nonetheless he still doesn't get much respect as Gucci Mane. But all this is from my experience in Baltimore, and NC.
I'm not sure where you live, so maybe its different where you are but in NC what I said was true. And in high-school most of the people that seemed to do terrible in school, we're those who believed Gucci Mane was better than Nas. Just saying. Any time I did hang around the projects, they weren't listening to Lil Wayne; maybe
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow
Well a few years ago it was the whole "Wayne is the best rapper alive
?????
Lil Wayne is one the highest circulated rappers around inner city communities. His mix tapes and collaborations are still popular around the projects.
This "respect" you speak of can be attributed to a difference of appearance and style. (Not everyone agrees with Lil Wayne's recent choice of clothing) Nonetheless, his music is still played.
There might be a preference when it comes to income levels, But there are many variables you have to consider: success, popularity, rap style, appearance, place of origin, etc.
More to the point,
Blaming it on hip hop is just hacking at the leaves, and distracting from the root problems. The fact that suspects and victims are of the same race proves this is still a de facto segregated society. It's a society with social, political, economic, racial, and systematic inequalities and inequities. These are the barriers, not hip hop. Hip Hop is a reflection of this truth, an uncomfortable truth.
Exactly, honestly he only got this level of popularity solely because of the murder. It helped him more than it hurt him, and know he's being glorified for it. Ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous. It's human nature and it would happen to any artist who sings similar topics. Another famous artist that became hyper famous due to committing a murder is Varg Vikernes. A heavy metal Norwegian artist. Men respect men who are willing to kill for their honor.
Why are you so focused on Gucci Mane? You even admitted you listened to him, and in a roundabout way, admitted to respecting him yet complain about his music
The southern stuff seems to be spreading outside of its own geographical boundaries more these days however. Anecdotal observation.
Meh...I actually think that Southern hip hop has reached the tipping point. In fact, a lot of people are starting to finally reject a lot of it now. Probably because its come under fire as wack for so long that folks are taking notice. I think the high point for the south was about 5 years ago. Some really hot artists that are "technically" from the south are still huge, like Drake, 2 Chainz, or Nicki Minaj, but none of that garbage is gangster by any means.
Clowns like Gucci? I doubt that his popularity is spreading anymore.
Music and entertainment can influence youth but I doubt it really leads to people killing each other. It does happen but not a lot. Smoking weed and violence are two different things. If your 14 years old and your favorite rapper is talking about smoking weed all the time your gonna be curious to try it but if your favorite rapper is talking about killing people I doubt your gonna start being curious about killing someone. Again some murders can probably be attributed to rap but not enough to really see a noticable difference in the homicide rate. Most homicides occur over drug wars (drug turf, deal gone bad, etc..). Murder often comes down to money and they are kind of like business decisions by local crews. "If we off this guy we get more money comming our way". Even if the music didn't glorify killings they'd still probably kill the guy anyway because they want the money.
I wouldn't consider Gucci Mane "real" either. Just because he murdered someone does not make him real. Being 'real' is exactly that, its being real. Someone who acts the way they naturally act is real. He may not neccessarily be putting up a fake facade like say Rick Ross but he's pushing his "gangster" persona farther then it really is. Most rappers now are brands, they're corperate pawns which is probably as far from real as you can get. The "real" rappers are the ones who talk about everyday problems because there talking about real stuff that happens to real everyday people. That's what rap was about in the beginning, presenting issues that were going on in the minority communities. In the contexts of Hip Hop guys like Immortal Technique talking about actual matters are real. Heck, listening to half these rappers now you wouldn't even think anything bad is going on in the hood because all they talk about is how much money, girls, and weed they have. Tupac must be rolling in his grave.
Like with Tupac, NWA comes to mind when it came to real issues. Very controversial and very political back in the day. Yeah, violent as well, but I think as you said they were rapping about real issues going on in the hood. Unfortunately you had a lot of wanna be gangsters trying emulate it and glorify it.
For the record, I think most of today's rap sucks! Give me the old school stuff any day.
Well when I produce my crackhead movie and my WWII movie, I'll let you watch them both and you tell me which one is more of a positive influence.
Actually getting high and searching for white castle is just as stupid as getting high and doing anything else. I really don't see where you're getting any of this from.
You don't see where I'm getting what from? I'm just stated a fact. For some reason songs about getting high are bad but movies where the main characters get high and do funny things are good entertainment. I don't see the difference; the message is the same. They used drugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow
The simple fact is that depending on the context violence can represent entirely different levels of depravity. I'll use the word depravity from here on out if it helps you to understand what I'm saying.
Violence is not always bad. Some people are in need of killing. Adolf Hitler for example. Based on the moral context of said violence, it can represent different levels of depravity and destructiveness.
Boyz N The Hood was a very good movie, and did nothing to glorify Ricky being shot in the back. It did nothing to even imply that this was somehow acceptable. It was a deep and meaningful commentary on the type of senseless violent ghetto idiocy that is portrayed in the exact opposite manner in whatever song you're talking about.
To even make an attempt to equate the two is patently absurd.
I understand what you're saying; I just have a differing view. The act of violence is the same, the way it's being processed is the difference. With Boyz In the Hood just about everybody felt some kid of way when Ricky got shot, but they didn't have the same feeling when Ice Cube & his friends shot the shooters even though it was equally violent (perhaps more so since Ice Cube got out of the car and walked over and shot each one point blank) we didn't receive it the same way because we felt it was somewhat justified since they'd killed Ricky (and those are John Singleton's words not mine)
In a movie we're able to see the cause and effect of violent acts so we're able to rationalize them. In music, we most often just get one side either the cause or the effect. In the song I was describing we are seeing the effect portion. Because of something that took place earlier before the song they are now out seeking revenge on someone. If they'd played the song in the car while Ice Cube & friends were driving around it would have been perfectly on point with that moment. John Singleton talks about this in several places; I have it on the commentary of one if his DVD's (it's either Four Brothers or Hustle & Flow I'm not sure) but it's probably online somewhere as well.
As far as the parents being responsible, I felt that way before I had children as well. When I was growing up it was people not liking the Simpons because it taught the kids bad things. I just think it's a problem when tv/music has a bigger impression on a child than the person raising it and if we're going to demand someone be more responsible it needs to be the parents. But for some reason the world has just accepted the fact that people aren't going to raise their kids so they try to restrict musicians, specifically rappers. I don't think that will solve any long-term problems so I don't support consequences for music or any other genre of entertainment.
Blaming it on hip hop is just hacking at the leaves, and distracting from the root problems. The fact that suspects and victims are of the same race proves this is still a de facto segregated society. It's a society with social, political, economic, racial, and systematic inequalities and inequities. These are the barriers, not hip hop. Hip Hop is a reflection of this truth, an uncomfortable truth.
Wayne and similar artists are a reflection of a sick culture above and beyond some basic economic disparity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
Clowns like Gucci? I doubt that his popularity is spreading anymore.
Maybe now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombieApocExtraordinaire
It's not ridiculous. It's human nature and it would happen to any artist who sings similar topics. Another famous artist that became hyper famous due to committing a murder is Varg Vikernes. A heavy metal Norwegian artist. Men respect men who are willing to kill for their honor.
There is absolutely no "honor" in your typical ghetto murder. It's idiotic behavior and only hurts to destroy a. the community and b. the perpetrator. You're romanticizing this "thug life" crap yourself here and now.
And there's sure as hell no honor in abusing women, doing drugs, and just being an all around ignorant and materialistic ****bag.
Again, you're citing basic primitive human instinct which is just common sense. It doesn't make anything more or less acceptable than it was before. I won't accept it because you say we should just embrace the fact and act like monkeys. Is this some type of new protected class from criticism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_at772
You don't see where I'm getting what from? I'm just stated a fact. For some reason songs about getting high are bad but movies where the main characters get high and do funny things are good entertainment. I don't see the difference; the message is the same. They used drugs.
I never drew a distinction on anything about anyone getting high. So like I said, I don't know where you're getting this from. Seriously, you pulled this out of nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_at772
I understand what you're saying; I just have a differing view. The act of violence is the same, the way it's being processed is the difference. With Boyz In the Hood just about everybody felt some kid of way when Ricky got shot, but they didn't have the same feeling when Ice Cube & his friends shot the shooters even though it was equally violent (perhaps more so since Ice Cube got out of the car and walked over and shot each one point blank) we didn't receive it the same way because we felt it was somewhat justified since they'd killed Ricky (and those are John Singleton's words not mine)
First off, there was a context.
Second off, were those retaliations glorified and did everyone walk away and live happily ever after? No. The guy winds up getting killed in further retaliation 2 weeks later.
If you didn't notice that message, sorry, but you missed the entire point of the movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_at772
In a movie we're able to see the cause and effect of violent acts so we're able to rationalize them. In music, we most often just get one side either the cause or the effect. In the song I was describing we are seeing the effect portion. Because of something that took place earlier before the song they are now out seeking revenge on someone. If they'd played the song in the car while Ice Cube & friends were driving around it would have been perfectly on point with that moment. John Singleton talks about this in several places; I have it on the commentary of one if his DVD's (it's either Four Brothers or Hustle & Flow I'm not sure) but it's probably online somewhere as well.
This is pure fantasy.
Your typical song that glorifies killing and other things is not a part of a story. If needed, it could be done, as has been proven in other music, music that you yourself have brought up.
But typically, it is not, because the point of the song is not to tell a story, as opposed to any halfway decent movie. Another reason it is crap, as opposed to any halfway decent movie. Do I really have to post lyrics up here? Because I'd rather not.
How anyone can sit here and equate "ride around and shoot mofos in the back" by Plies to any movie about the senselessness of ghetto murders is completely beyond me.
One is presented objectively in the third person about a guy who is killed, who's brother kills back, and who is killed back himself. The moral of the story is, the whole thing is stupid.
One is presented in the first person and directly says: shooting people is good and perfectly justified if they look at you cross eyed.
I don't even think you can do this without being intellectually dishonest with yourself. The difference is as clear as night and day, whether I explain it in simple terms or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_at772
As far as the parents being responsible, I felt that way before I had children as well. When I was growing up it was people not liking the Simpons because it taught the kids bad things. I just think it's a problem when tv/music has a bigger impression on a child than the person raising it and if we're going to demand someone be more responsible it needs to be the parents. But for some reason the world has just accepted the fact that people aren't going to raise their kids so they try to restrict musicians, specifically rappers. I don't think that will solve any long-term problems so I don't support consequences for music or any other genre of entertainment.
Well, some people aren't going to raise their kids, and most likely, it'll be the same people in the groups who tend to listen to crap like this.
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