Beginning to understand why inner-city African Americans are killing each other. (Somali, versus)

[HoodsofATL]

Well you guys do know hip hop sounded nothing like it does now when it first started to even as back as 20 years ago, well let me say mainstream hip hop. The artists being pushed by the media and execs (Chief Keef, 2chainz, Lil Wayne etc.) are an overly represented version of hip hop, you got rappers like Gucci and Boosie but rather than murder, drugs, hoes being their main focus they talk about the struggle (moreso Boosie than Gucci) the downs as well as the ups of that lifestyle, Boosie even said his mother didn't want him to be apart of that lifestyle. And what most of you don't know is that Boosie is probably the most respected rapper in the whole industry, I know for sure he is in the south. The rappers you all here about now are like actors, rap is moreso entertainment today, for youth both black and white who've never experienced that life.

The ones who have experienced that life and rap about it will definitely show you both faces to that lifestyle, not just the glorious.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

I never drew a distinction on anything about anyone getting high. So like I said, I don't know where you're getting this from. Seriously, you pulled this out of nowhere.

sigh...the subject of drugs was brought up in the OP. Gucci is a confirmed drug dealer. The problem you seem to be having is that I'm following the entire conversation and not just your comments.

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

First off, there was a context.

Second off, were those retaliations glorified and did everyone walk away and live happily ever after? No. The guy winds up getting killed in further retaliation 2 weeks later.

If you didn't notice that message, sorry, but you missed the entire point of the movie..

Again you missed my point about how a movie is a complete picture and a song is a moment. Basically what your bottom line seems to be is that your viewpoint is the only correct one so why bother continue talking about it.

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

This is pure fantasy.

Yes...pure fantasy from the man who wrote the movie. Again, not worth debating because your opinion is nor more right or valid than his; it's just your opinion.

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

Your typical song that glorifies killing and other things is not a part of a story. If needed, it could be done, as has been proven in other music, music that you yourself have brought up.

But typically, it is not, because the point of the song is not to tell a story, as opposed to any halfway decent movie. Another reason it is crap, as opposed to any halfway decent movie. Do I really have to post lyrics up here? Because I'd rather not.

How anyone can sit here and equate "ride around and shoot mofos in the back" by Plies to any movie about the senselessness of ghetto murders is completely beyond me. One is presented objectively in the third person about a guy who is killed, who's brother kills back, and who is killed back himself. The moral of the story is, the whole thing is stupid.

One is presented in the first person and directly says: shooting people is good and perfectly justified if they look at you cross eyed.

I don't even think you can do this without being intellectually dishonest with yourself. The difference is as clear as night and day, whether I explain it in simple terms or not.

My typical song? I don't even know what you're talking about here. Good grief I wonder if you're reading half of the words I type just so you can pretend to be confused. None of what you said is even remotely close to the point I'm trying to make so I concede to whatever it is you're saying.

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

Well, some people aren't going to raise their kids, and most likely, it'll be the same people in the groups who tend to listen to crap like this.

So the answer is to restrict the words and actions of others because those kids might look up to them? Yeah, lets spend some tax dollars trying to get that enforced.

We can debate back and forth all day long...well we could if I was going to respond but seriously your refusal to even acknowledge what I'm saying is causing my head to hurt so I'm just going to move on.

At the end of the day NONE of this has a major impact on what's going on within urban black communities. Many of those gangster rappers became popular by rapping about they were seeing in those communities. Silencing their stories doesn't make the story end.

[rw47]

Originally Posted by nat_at772

sigh...the subject of drugs was brought up in the OP. Gucci is a confirmed drug dealer. The problem you seem to be having is that I'm following the entire conversation and not just your comments.

First off, drug dealing implies more than just drug use in today's world. You're wiggling.

Earlier, you came out and implied that I was some kind of hypocrite because I thought Harold and Kumar was okay, but songs about smoking weed weren't. Which was a strawman. Here, I'll even quote you:

"For some reason songs about getting high are bad but movies where the main characters get high and do funny things are good entertainment. I don't see the difference; the message is the same. They used drugs. "

Me, nor the OP, nor anyone else here, even tried to argue that when musicians got high it was any worse than when anyone else such as Harold and Kumar got high.

The reason the OP used the examples he did is because getting high isn't the only issue here, it's just one of a million that all seem to magically come together to result in a large ball of crap.

Hopefully this puts that to rest.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

Again you missed my point about how a movie is a complete picture and a song is a moment. Basically what your bottom line seems to be is that your viewpoint is the only correct one so why bother continue talking about it.

I addressed it a paragraph later.

I don't buy this theory for a second. It's quite frankly insane. The entire context of your typical violent song is presented in a completely different manner from your typical violent movie, whether there are overlaps in subject matter or not.

When they come out with a movie that consists of 2 hours of a guy sitting around ranting about killing people, then I'll go with this.

The idea that time constraints plays a role here would make sense if and only if there were an equivalent amount of songs to represent the different scenarios presented in say Boyz N The Hood for example. Right now, those songs don't exist.

Every song I can think of by these certain "artists" is roughly analogous to the scene where the 3 guys get shot in the parking lot. Usually for much more trivial reasons as well. I don't hear many songs about tough fathers, parents losing children, kids losing fathers, and cycles of senseless violence resulting in death and destruction all around for no purpose.

No comparison.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

Yes...pure fantasy from the man who wrote the movie. Again, not worth debating because your opinion is nor more right or valid than his; it's just your opinion.

Some opinions are more valid than others. I am right and that's why I'm debating.

If you can't grasp the difference between glorification and documentation within a greater context, your opinion has little credibility.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

My typical song? I don't even know what you're talking about here. Good grief I wonder if you're reading half of the words I type just so you can pretend to be confused. None of what you said is even remotely close to the point I'm trying to make so I concede to whatever it is you're saying.

Stop distorting my words. I said "Your typical song that glorifies killing and other things."

Your assertion was very clear. You are attempting to equate the glorification in these songs with the objective or even critical view expressed in movies.

Earlier you attempted to argue that all violence was the same regardless of context.

I'm following your arguments perfectly fine, I just reject most of them.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

So the answer is to restrict the words and actions of others because those kids might look up to them? Yeah, lets spend some tax dollars trying to get that enforced.

STRAWMAN ALERT.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

We can debate back and forth all day long...well we could if I was going to respond but seriously your refusal to even acknowledge what I'm saying is causing my head to hurt so I'm just going to move on.

Ditto.

And I do acknowledge what you say. I just reject it, because it's ludicrous. You can not equate the vast majority of this trash with the vast majority of movies even movies covering the same subject matter.

You can not equate the direct and real glorification of killing with a movie that documents said killing within a greater context.

[rw47]

Let me add something about movies vs music.

Certain artists would not support my argument nearly as well as others. We're not talking about them though. The subject of the thread is people like Gucci Mane and Lil Wayne who are about as far on the opposite end of the spectrum as it gets from any type of legitimate storytelling.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by SamBarrow

First off, drug dealing implies more than just drug use in today's world. You're wiggling.

Earlier, you came out and implied that I was some kind of hypocrite because I thought Harold and Kumar was okay, but songs about smoking weed weren't. Which was a strawman. Here, I'll even quote you:

"For some reason songs about getting high are bad but movies where the main characters get high and do funny things are good entertainment. I don't see the difference; the message is the same. They used drugs. "

Me, nor the OP, nor anyone else here, even tried to argue that when musicians got high it was any worse than when anyone else such as Harold and Kumar got high.

The reason the OP used the examples he did is because getting high isn't the only issue here, it's just one of a million that all seem to magically come together to result in a large ball of crap.

Hopefully this puts that to rest.

Sigh. I'm not wiggling anything. I never implied that YOU said anything. I never called YOU a hypocrite. In fact my first response to this thread was a reply to a poster who said there should be consequences in music, which I disagree with. Everything I have said following that has supported why I disagree with it. But like I said you think you're right; you're refusing to even attempt to understand what I'm saying (which by your responses I can tell you are not getting at all) so why are you even still talking about it? Just go sit down somewhere and be right.

[desertdetroiter]

Hip hop storytelling is largely apocryphal. Most rappers never lived it. When Kool G. Rap did "Ill Street Blues," I never once believed that he threw an actual person out of the window. But the lyricism and delivery is undeniably witty and incredible.

But the stories themselves should be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, it happened SOMEWHERE (Murphy's Law), but probably not to them.

[rw47]

Originally Posted by nat_at772

Sigh. I'm not wiggling anything. I never implied that YOU said anything. I never called YOU a hypocrite. In fact my first response to this thread was a reply to a poster who said there should be consequences in music, which I disagree with. Everything I have said following that has supported why I disagree with it. But like I said you think I'm right; you're refusing to even attempt to understand what I'm saying (which by your responses I can tell you are not getting at all) so why are you even still talking about it? Just go sit down somewhere and be right.

You tried to draw a comparison between our argument and the argument that Harold and Kumar was great, but rappers who rap specifically about smoking weed were horrible and disgusting people. Which is not analogous to any position we have taken.

If you read the OP and pretty much every subsequent post from this side of the fence, the focus has been on violence, and to a lesser degree self destructive behavior.

Were the violence not present and we had criticized music and music only, then we'd be hypocrites. But Harold and Kumar has no relevance here given that the primary issue is that of things much worse than smoking a little weed.

Even movies like Harold and Kumar are stupid in their own way and to some degree serve to legitimize grown men acting like children. Not exactly a profound or meaningful message, but hey, I'll take it over the alternative any day of the week.

Let me lay it out for you: Rapping about how great smoking weed is is no better or worse than making a movie about how great smoking weed is. My position is consistent.

If I'm wrong, it should be easy enough for you to prove it.

Originally Posted by desertdetroiter

Hip hop storytelling is largely apocryphal. Most rappers never lived it. When Kool G. Rap did "Ill Street Blues," I never once believed that he threw an actual person out of the window. But the lyricism and delivery is undeniably witty and incredible.

The problem with this though, is that storytelling using witty lyricism and delivery has been replaced by just... more violence.

This happens because it is easy, just as it is easy for a movie to tack on a bunch of special effects and loud noises as opposed to improving the actual story.

Being easier, it requires less skill. And being stupider, it appeals both to a more stupid crowd in addition to the stupider parts of our own minds, overall intelligence aside.

This is what has happened in the last 15 years especially with this kind of music. It really does not resemble what it was in its early years.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by desertdetroiter

Hip hop storytelling is largely apocryphal. Most rappers never lived it. When Kool G. Rap did "Ill Street Blues," I never once believed that he threw an actual person out of the window. But the lyricism and delivery is undeniably witty and incredible.

But the stories themselves should be taken with a grain of salt. Sure, it happened SOMEWHERE (Murphy's Law), but probably not to them.

I think that's the problem I have with the blaming the problems of the world on music. Now I'll be the first one to say that the storytelling aspect of rap has gone downhill but I don't think censorship is the right answer. One of my favorite songs is Regulators by Warren G & Nate Dogg; I've listened to that song about a million times over the years not once did I ever believe that Nate actually shot anybody.

I guess what people is saying is that kids today aren't smart enough to realize the difference between the reality they live in and the fiction they hear on the radio.

[zombieApocExtraordinaire]

Originally Posted by eagles123

I wouldn't consider Gucci Mane "real" either. Just because he murdered someone does not make him real.

Gucci Mane didn't murder anyone. he shot and killed someone in self defense. It's also unclear if it was him, his friends, or a combination of him and his friends that shot the guy.

[rw47]

Originally Posted by nat_at772

I think that's the problem I have with the blaming the problems of the world on music. Now I'll be the first one to say that the storytelling aspect of rap has gone downhill but I don't think censorship is the right answer. One of my favorite songs is Regulators by Warren G & Nate Dogg; I've listened to that song about a million times over the years not once did I ever believe that Nate actually shot anybody.

I've heard that song probably a thousand times, but haven't even thought of it in a good 10 years.

I don't think that is especially profound and meaningful, but like I said it is a sliding scale. Even that was far less vulgar and ignorant than much of what you hear now.

Originally Posted by nat_at772

I guess what people is saying is that kids today aren't smart enough to realize the difference between the reality they live in and the fiction they hear on the radio.

What we is saying is a couple of things.

1. Many aren't. I wouldn't say kids today, but a portion of kids today.
2. The music we're referring to is in many cases specifically targeted to the exact portion of kids who do not have the proper guidance to understand that difference.
3. When the reality they live in is so influenced by the fiction they hear on the radio, the lines are blurred. Much of it even though it is fiction on the part of the particular artist, does happen every day.

This is why I repeat my earlier statement that it is a cyclical problem. A sick reality creates a sick culture, which ensures a sick reality, which creates a sick culture, which ensures a sick reality, which ...