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No, not really. Shotguns have too small capacity, are too slow to reload, and have to have even bigger barrels than ARs. Handguns are small enough to work in interior spaces, but the rounds they fire don't compare to rifle rounds for stopping power.
Interesting hybrid - the AR pistol. Not REALLY a pistol, but satisfies the rules of the NFA for being one. Handles like, and has the firepower and handling characteristics of a short barreled AR (which IS controlled under the NFA.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by butkus51
Yes. Or a shotgun. You'll definitely hit the intruder with that.
"As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets."
Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.
This is a question. Don't get your panties in a wad if i don't use terminology you like.
Seems to me that shouldn't i be very concerned as in scared ****less should some one other than me be doing a home defense with a rifle?Years ago as like in the early 70's a friend had a AR-15 that was .223 caliber. He shot it right through a Bridge beam that was very thick from an old torn down bridge.
I am thinking that when someone starts shooting a rifle in housing or apartment areas then a lot of holes can be punched through walls( of people not involved other than living next door). Am i right?
Hypothetical, and specious.
Home invasions are on the rise in many areas. The AR-15, a favorite of police departments, might be the weapon of choice to defend ones home, property, and ones life, in such a situation. A small hand gun against more than one such invader, would be inadequate, would it not?
Should citizens not have the same weapons available to police departments for protection of their homes? As the saying goes, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."
Well a 223 can be loaded with ammo that is called frangible. Its designed that if you miss in a house and even if you don't hit anything solid like a stud and only dry wall, it flys apart and is not dangerous to the next room. They are expensive but you don't target practice with them. But if you hit the main target and nothing but air has hit the bullet then it does its job if it hits the target. Works for pistol ammo as well. Its like a shotgun shell that has a copper jacket and holds together until the slightest strike.
Most liberals don't know that a 223 is a very under powered cartridge. It was designed that way. Any of the normal hunting calibers are so much more powerful its double or more the power. a 308 has 3 times the mass that a 223 has on avg. 55gr to 150 gr. A 223 has 1330 Foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and a 308 has 2730.
These liberals who think they know guns know little to nothing. Standard hunting rounds will penetrate most all body armor with ease.
This is how uneducated the left is on guns, the 50 caliber browning is seen to be a death ray, yes it is the most powerful rifle ctg. today, but then they go to the 223 which is one of the smallest centerfire ctgs. today and its a death ray. That does not make sense.
The Uzi gets a bad rap but its a 9mm pistol ctg. fired in a rifle configuration. or Sub machine gun config. Its much less powerful than the 223. I think the left is just trying to not look like they want to take away hunting rifles. They want to attack what they feel is the vulnerable guns.
Any handgun you fire indoors will penetrate multiple walls, a 22lr will go through 3 walls before being stopped. No matter what you use for home defense, make sure you hit your target and know what is behind it. You have to remember most interior walls are just 2 pieces of 5/8 dry wall with some paint.
Interesting hybrid - the AR pistol. Not REALLY a pistol, but satisfies the rules of the NFA for being one. Handles like, and has the firepower and handling characteristics of a short barreled AR (which IS controlled under the NFA.)
And they are available in everything from .22LR to .223 to .458 SOCOM. Yes, there is a guy at AR15.com that built a .458 SOCOM pistol.
The only drawback is the inability to put a vertical fore grip on it. For the uninformed, it's nothing physical stopping us, it's the NFA laws that don't allow a vertical grip on a pistol. There are numerous memos from the ATF that give the OK to put an angled fore grip like MAGPUL's AFG. It's also difficult to put it on a 4" pistol rail. But a low profile gas block and a carbine rail work great.
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,078 posts, read 15,084,813 times
Reputation: 3937
Quote:
Originally Posted by txgolfer130
This ^^^^
Condition 1 24/7 on the FNP45 (14+1) & 5+1 on the Remington 1100 tactical w/ Winchester PDX1 for downstairs, #4 on the Mossy SA-20 upstairs.
But if I had to use a semi auto rifle, it would be my MP-5.
TG...you should take a look at the Franchi spas 12..I have 2 of them and have tried everything from a Mossberg Persuader on out both on duty and as a goofball just shooting and so far other than the mossberg bullpup I haven't really ran across anything I like as well in the shotguns..collapsible stock..pump/auto..I can shoot it from the hip and tear jack up within the 25' range that the average "gunfight" occurs within etc etc.
I have bifold closet doors in my entrance hall and bedroom..I built a hangar that fits on the back of the first door of my closets and hang one in both places...if you open the doors,it folds in to where the gun can't be seen and therefore I don't arm someone else who may enter the house unarmed(which is usually the case anyway with felons who do not want to chance a traffic stop enroute to a job and end up back in the pen so easy)...very easy for me to reach while standing at the front door and the same in the bedroom..I have other weapons available to be sure but if I have the chance to grab one of those two Franchis,woe unto the evil one that enters my place looking for an easy meal..of course,that's if my Heeler dogs haven't dismembered him first on his walk up from the highway past the closed iron gates...I'm not in the least worried about armed revolution,fema takeovers or zombies because I think that's all a bunch of internet horsecrap..what I AM worried about is these ignorant arsed methanites running around here all crank up and spun out who lose their minds and think they are superman..those cats are a realistic threat to me and my family in this area.
You better hope they don't hang around, because you would be out of ammo and would be stuck reloading the hardest weapon to master reloading on.
Which is why I addressed that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore
There's still the disadvantage of limited number of rounds (5+1, and I'm unaware of a magazine extension for this weapon), but unless you're planning on defending a gun store, have valuables worth millions, or have royally p|ssed off a drug-dealing gang leader, I can't see your average group of bad guys hanging around past 6 rounds of buckshot.
I'm not talking about defending the Alamo, or "end-times", or street riots, or full-on assassination or kidnapping attempts. If you have a reason to think someone is specifically targeting you, or you live in a high-crime area where home invasions are common, or if lots of people know you have tons of cash or high-value portable items (jewelry, etc.) in your house, then you would want better weaponry. Preferably multiple night-capable weapons scattered around the house in well-hidden but easily accessible locations with spare magazines. I like muleskinner's bi-fold closet door hiding spot... I going to look into that.
But for most normal people, in the vast majority of cases where a homeowner is defending himself with a gun just the fact he has a gun is enough. A drug addict short on cash looking for a quick score won't stick around after one shot (assuming you miss), much less 6. Someone intending harm (rapist, etc.) is looking for easy prey, and has no interest in someone with a gun. Even an armed home invasion will end quickly after 1-2 of the invaders are on the ground.
Most importantly, if you're trusting your life to something, LEARN IT. If you don't practice enough to remember how to reload a gun under stress then you have no business using a gun under stress.
And finally, all this talk about guns ignores the fact that a gun should never be your only defense. If you're worried enough to buy a gun, the very first thing you should do is invest in good window and door locks (much cheaper than a gun). Get lock bars for doors (wedges between the handle and the floor). Get an alarm system that alerts for broken glass and opening doors, maybe motion detectors if you don't have pets. If you can afford it pay to have the alarm system monitored by a reliable company (monthly fee). Lethal force should be your last resort.
TG...you should take a look at the Franchi spas 12..I have 2 of them and have tried everything from a Mossberg Persuader on out both on duty and as a goofball just shooting and so far other than the mossberg bullpup I haven't really ran across anything I like as well in the shotguns..collapsible stock..pump/auto..I can shoot it from the hip and tear jack up within the 25' range that the average "gunfight" occurs within etc etc.
I have bifold closet doors in my entrance hall and bedroom..I built a hangar that fits on the back of the first door of my closets and hang one in both places...if you open the doors,it folds in to where the gun can't be seen and therefore I don't arm someone else who may enter the house unarmed(which is usually the case anyway with felons who do not want to chance a traffic stop enroute to a job and end up back in the pen so easy)...very easy for me to reach while standing at the front door and the same in the bedroom..I have other weapons available to be sure but if I have the chance to grab one of those two Franchis,woe unto the evil one that enters my place looking for an easy meal..of course,that's if my Heeler dogs haven't dismembered him first on his walk up from the highway past the closed iron gates...I'm not in the least worried about armed revolution,fema takeovers or zombies because I think that's all a bunch of internet horsecrap..what I AM worried about is these ignorant arsed methanites running around here all crank up and spun out who lose their minds and think they are superman..those cats are a realistic threat to me and my family in this area.
Love the Franchi spas, but there's just something about my Rem1100 TAC that I love. The Mossy is for the wife in case of last ditch upstairs defense. Except for the initial entry downstairs, most of my engagement envelope parameters are approx. 12-14 ft. But the Rem load out is more than adequate for those distances, methed up or not. Wife can't handle the collapsible stock on the Franchi or any other collapsible for that matter. I also would love to have a USAS 12, but that thing is way to heavy and too difficult for combat reload for actual PHDF use. But as USAS w/ a 20 round mag would be awesome.
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Wife can't handle the collapsible stock on the Franchi or any other collapsible for that matter. I also would love to have a USAS 12, but that thing is way to heavy and too difficult for combat reload for actual PHDF use. But as USAS w/ a 20 round mag would be awesome.
