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I'm not talking about collective guilt, unless you're in the class of actual rapists who should have gone to prison but instead got off (god that pun is so bad...)
We have some saying "The victim should take responsibility"
Other saying "No, rapists should take responsibility"
And those of us who are being, I dunno, RATIONAL, saying that everyone should be careful but when the crime still happens (and it does) then the criminal needs to be properly prosecuted and sentenced. Which often does not happen, and even though I get that sometimes proving rape is tricky, the fact that getting justice for it is hard to do, sucks.
And here you're all talking about eggshells? Saying the only reason you would disclaimer that rape is a rapist's fault, is so you don't get yelled at by feminists or some nonsense? Dude, what, even.
Well in my defense I had no idea who was in this class when I signed up for it.
But really, the victims are responsible for their own actions and the rapists are responsible for for their own actions. It's not that complicated but you have the outrage brigade trying to scream people in to submission to keep them from pointing out that very simple truth. Why is it so controversial to say that we have an obligation to look out for ourselves? It's harmful to women to try to convince them to believe otherwise.
This and it seems, from what I've read, heard, and personally been told (I'm friends with many girls who've unfortunately been raped) you do tend to KNOW the rapist and are close to them. Some people are assaulted by their uncles, cousins, even siblings, and fathers. What precautions could you possibly take to make sure THEY don't rape you, especially when (family wise) they are the last person you'd ever think of doing it. What about a close friend, one you've known for years? Or a boyfriend, someone you typically trust and know would stop when you say so? If this is the case, how on earth could, and honestly why would, you truly take precautions to make sure these people you trust and know WON'T do this to you?
You are right that so-called acquaintance rape is a different thing, separate from what was being referenced in the original post on this thread. And of course, your point that it's even harder to avoid situations where it's a family member or someone else you know who has access in the normal course of events is absolutely correct.
And the reality is that even if you lock yourself in your house and never go out, you can still be attacked - I know several women who were raped by someone who broke into their home to commit the crime. Gee, I wonder what they should have done differently?
This and it seems, from what I've read, heard, and personally been told (I'm friends with many girls who've unfortunately been raped) you do tend to KNOW the rapist and are close to them. Some people are assaulted by their uncles, cousins, even siblings, and fathers. What precautions could you possibly take to make sure THEY don't rape you, especially when (family wise) they are the last person you'd ever think of doing it. What about a close friend, one you've known for years? Or a boyfriend, someone you typically trust and know would stop when you say so? If this is the case, how on earth could, and honestly why would, you truly take precautions to make sure these people you trust and know WON'T do this to you?
These are BY FAR more common scenarios than "menacing stranger ambushing you in a dark alley."
Plenty of women (if not most women) regret a night and don't call it rape. But at the same time, taking advantage of someone who is so impaired that she can't make informed decisions doesn't make him much of a stand-up guy.
In the state where I live, taking advantage of a woman so impaired that she can't make an informed decision is called "rape." It's written into our criminal-sexual-conduct law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
It is called making yourself a hard target. It does not mean blame the victim nor excuse the crime, but it does assist in a person not becoming the victim of a crime such as this or any other crime.
Throwing a bunch of money on the seat of your car, leaving the doors unlocked, then the money getting stolen is a crime, but everyone will pretty much state a person who left the money in clear view with the doors unlocked is an idiot.
There are criminals out there, it is best to make yourself a hard target and try to assist yourself in not being a victim of a crime.
But women don't normally go into bars and restaurants and friends' houses and parties saying "I have to make myself a hard target." Nobody thinks rape can happen to them, until it does. It's hard to make somebody wily about avoiding something that isn't even real to them.
That and the fact that when they do, if they are even given enough credence that it goes to court, they generally get put on the stand, held up to media scrutiny, and generally treated as if THEY are the criminals, bothinthe court and the court of public opinion. Routinely. Who wants to be revictimized over and over when seeking justice that is hardly ever actually served?
Right, the way the system works is that the accused is innocent until proven guilty, and the accuser is a liar until proven truthful.
Well in my defense I had no idea who was in this class when I signed up for it.
But really, the victims are responsible for their own actions and the rapists are responsible for for their own actions. It's not that complicated but you have the outrage brigade trying to scream people in to submission to keep them from pointing out that very simple truth. Why is it so controversial to say that we have an obligation to look out for ourselves? It's harmful to women to try to convince them to believe otherwise.
The reason people take issue with this is when it arrives at the doorstep of CONSEQUENCE.
We use responsibility, fault, blame, as a way to then proceed to justice, punishment, consequence.
The hypothetical woman who exercised poor judgment and made herself an easy target, has already suffered the consequences. She will, you may have no doubt at all, spend the rest of her life reliving the whole thing and agonizing over what she could have done differently. She has already been punished, by the fact of rape having occurred, and it is likely that if she made a mistake, she has learned from it.
When people feel a need to actually argue that position, point it out, and stand on that side of it, you're kind of saying that isn't enough. That it also mitigates the extent to which the rapist is to blame and therefore should be subject to consequences. At least that is how it plays out in court. But on top of that, you're saying that the victim of rape has not suffered enough, and needs her nose rubbed in it. At least, that is how it comes off.
Saying that a rape victim only got what she deserved, paints her rapist as actually some performer of a public duty or server of cosmic justice. If she deserved it, then somehow what he did is right, or at the least, it's merely a "bad thing that happened to her." It isn't a thing he did, it's a simple consequence of her actions.
Also, the whole "something bad happened to you and not me, because you're inferior and I'm better than you" vibes. Yeah, way to be compassionate to a suffering person.
This goes way beyond the simple basic argument that a person should do wise things to ward their own safety. I mean seriously no sht. Who needed you to point that out? Will you explain to me next why I should wear a seatbelt in the car?
Well in my defense I had no idea who was in this class when I signed up for it.
But really, the victims are responsible for their own actions and the rapists are responsible for for their own actions. It's not that complicated but you have the outrage brigade trying to scream people in to submission to keep them from pointing out that very simple truth. Why is it so controversial to say that we have an obligation to look out for ourselves? It's harmful to women to try to convince them to believe otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
The reason people take issue with this is when it arrives at the doorstep of CONSEQUENCE.
We use responsibility, fault, blame, as a way to then proceed to justice, punishment, consequence.
The hypothetical woman who exercised poor judgment and made herself an easy target, has already suffered the consequences. She will, you may have no doubt at all, spend the rest of her life reliving the whole thing and agonizing over what she could have done differently. She has already been punished, by the fact of rape having occurred, and it is likely that if she made a mistake, she has learned from it.
When people feel a need to actually argue that position, point it out, and stand on that side of it, you're kind of saying that isn't enough. That it also mitigates the extent to which the rapist is to blame and therefore should be subject to consequences. At least that is how it plays out in court. But on top of that, you're saying that the victim of rape has not suffered enough, and needs her nose rubbed in it. At least, that is how it comes off.
Saying that a rape victim only got what she deserved, paints her rapist as actually some performer of a public duty or server of cosmic justice. If she deserved it, then somehow what he did is right, or at the least, it's merely a "bad thing that happened to her." It isn't a thing he did, it's a simple consequence of her actions.
Also, the whole "something bad happened to you and not me, because you're inferior and I'm better than you" vibes. Yeah, way to be compassionate to a suffering person.
This goes way beyond the simple basic argument that a person should do wise things to ward their own safety. I mean seriously no sht. Who needed you to point that out? Will you explain to me next why I should wear a seatbelt in the car?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully
Well in my defense I had no idea who was in this class when I signed up for it.
But really, the victims are responsible for their own actions and the rapists are responsible for for their own actions. It's not that complicated but you have the outrage brigade trying to scream people in to submission to keep them from pointing out that very simple truth. Why is it so controversial to say that we have an obligation to look out for ourselves? It's harmful to women to try to convince them to believe otherwise.
I multi quoted my last post both before and after the quote of your post to indicate the circular nature of this discussion at this point. You're talking past me not to me. It almost seems like you've started the conversation completely over and everything I said, and part of what you even said earlier, got deleted somehow. But if I go back and look it's still there!
still doesn't mean you are at fault for it happening. The perpetrator is the one at fault, period. If there were no rapists, women could walk around naked and not get raped. If there were no muggers, people could flash big rolls of cash and not get mugged. Taking precautions at best means it's less likely to happen to an individual person, but as long as the criminals are out there, the crimes will occur.
There's the bunny. It's fine to give general advice about personal safety, although a lot of the advice people dole out is dumb, insulting, contradictory, or counterproductive. I certainly appreciate and use the good advice I've gotten over the years from people who genuinely had my best interests at heart, and weren't just finger-wagging, Monday morning quarterbacking, or being manipulative.
But if every woman in the world were taking general precautions, that wouldn't stop rape. If there is a rapist on the prowl in my area, and I take precautions to prevent myself from being the target, he just targets someone else. If we all take precautions, then he changes his approach. As long as there's a rapist around, someone's eventually getting raped. I can reduce the likelihood it's me, but only stopping the actual rapist will mean a rape doesn't occur.
But if every woman in the world were taking general precautions, that wouldn't stop rape. If there is a rapist on the prowl in my area, and I take precautions to prevent myself from being the target, he just targets someone else. If we all take precautions, then he changes his approach. As long as there's a rapist around, someone's eventually getting raped. I can reduce the likelihood it's me, but only stopping the actual rapist will mean a rape doesn't occur.
And that's a great point. I don't want take precautions and be passed over as a target only for a rapist to go after someone who's more alone and more vulnerable. I don't want him to target anyone.
When someone is walking down the middle of a busy street and gets hit by car, do people say, well maybe he shouldn't have been walking down the middle of the street?
When a person leaves a car unlocked in a shady part of town, do people say, hey next time LOCK YOU DOORS?
When someone in a casino is waving the stack of money he just won, exclaiming Wow Look how much I won, and gets robbed on his way out, do people say, probably shouldn't have announced you were carrying all that cash?
YES.
Common sense. Don't do stupid stuff that ultimately hurts YOU. Take responsibility for YOURSELF. You are the only YOU you've got. Take care of it. And that include women making stupid choices. Take better care of yourself.
The police would actively investigate the accident (especially if it was purposeful!), the car theft, and the robbery. Rapes are not taken very seriously. Have you heard about the huge backlog of untested rape kits? Disgusting.
As to your scenario of the person walking down the street - you think the motorist is entitled to hit the person because they are in the middle of the street? Would we not condemn the motorist? Would he not be arrested? Would we not be horrified by the motorists actions? The answer is a resounding YES.
In every situation you listed above, the criminal would be held accountable regardless of the actions of the victim. Malicious and criminal behavior is not excused by the victim's stupidity, naivete, etc.
Why should sexual assault and rape be treated any differently?
PS - Most women do blame themselves when they are assaulted. Thanks to people like you.
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