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So my experience that makes it tricky for me to speak to this, because I'm like, "Well, yes, BUT..."
I was 14, and all of a sudden I'd gone from ugly duckling to hot young teen. My Mom had given me a bunch of her um..."provocative clothing"...that no longer fit her, because she wanted my confidence and self esteem to get better. I was bored one night, and there was a parking lot carnival in town. It was completely my idea that Mom and I should go to the carnival. (I'd been watching the film, "The Lost Boys" and I thought Star was the coolest and wanted to be just like her. This was what was in my head.) So we put on our pretty clothes, I wore a long gypsy skirt and off we went.
We attracted the notice of a group of young Mexican men. It happens that they barely spoke English and were illegal immigrants from rural Mexico, in Northern VA to do construction work and send money home. The only reason this matters, is that there was a cultural disconnect. We ended up taking two of them home with us. I became more and more uncomfortable with how the night was going, I told the guy who was putting the make on me, "No" very firmly and pushed him away and tried to get up and leave. He became forceful with me. He'd been drinking (my Dad was a scary drunk) and I felt that if I insisted on fighting him, he'd seriously injure me and then have his way with me anyhow, so I stopped resisting and waited until it was over.
I have not felt deeply psychologically scarred, or traumatized, or anything by this...afterwards if anything, I felt rather as though I'd stepped in dog poo with a bare foot. Disgusted, yes, but I washed and put it behind me. I found out later that he was 28 years old. The guy my Mom had taken home and into her bed, she ended up marrying.
So from this I certainly did learn about letting things get to a certain point, and who you can't simply trust to stop when you say no, and a good few "what not to do" things...I would be a liar if I said it wasn't a learning experience. I have never been assaulted since then, so my precautions have perhaps been paying off, though I know it still could happen in any of a number of ways. That incident could have been prevented, by my choices or my Mom's choices, but I'm pretty sure that guy did not believe that what he did was rape. In his mind, if a sexy young woman makes eyes at you, and you get to the point where you're in her house with your hands on her, then she's fair game and nothing she can do should give you pause. His understanding of what consent means...and mine, then and now...not the same. Personally, the way I see it, if you learn some useful life lessons and you get to walk away from the experience without being beaten, maimed or killed, but merely feeling rather disgusted...well, you're luckier than some. I feel I gained some wisdom at a relatively low cost.
But that is how I have chosen to view MY experience. It doesn't give me any right to sit in judgment over anyone else's experience, or how they see it or how harmed they are or aren't by it, or what they do about it, or ANYTHING.
And if my choices since then have helped to keep me safe, there's an element of luck there too, that so far I haven't encountered one of the situations where NO amount of care or smarts would have changed things.
That guy actually dragged her behind the dumpster. He didn't find her there, he put her there.
And that case speaks very loudly to the biggest issue I've got. The judge let him off so as "not to ruin his life." Clearly stating that any male's life is more important than any female's life. Period, end of story. Her experience was trivialized, and we all got to hear about his stupid swim team scores, like that matters.
I understand that sometimes it's dodgy to build a solid case, but in the Brock Turner case, they had witnesses and ample evidence. This wasn't some "he said/she said" matter. He dragged an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and assaulted her. And got a slap on the wrist! And all sorts of sympathy, like SHE was trying to ruin HIM. wtf??
It's like...ok, so it's difficult to prevent rape from ever happening...and it's difficult to prove when it does...but when it happens, and when there's a solid case, could we at LEAST get appropriate justice?
You were 14? And your MOM encouraged this? I'm sorry she put you in that position. In most states at least today that is statutory rape and a 14 year old can only consent with someone within like 3-4 years of their own age, give or take. So what happened to you is rape by law (today's standards, not sure how long ago this happened to you or what the law was then), no way around that. That was 100% rape and as a kid, not your fault even a little. I'm appalled your mom took two guys home, one for each of you. Jesus. Fourteen.
You were 14? And your MOM encouraged this? I'm sorry she put you in that position. In most states at least today that is statutory rape and a 14 year old can only consent with someone within like 3-4 years of their own age, give or take. So what happened to you is rape by law (today's standards, not sure how long ago this happened to you or what the law was then), no way around that. That was 100% rape and as a kid, not your fault even a little. I'm appalled your mom took two guys home, one for each of you. Jesus. Fourteen.
I agree. This hits close to home for me (the underage part). So.
Sonic, the man's behavior was rape. I don't think 14 was legal age of consent anywhere in the early 90's, and while a jury or a prosecutor might have felt like you had given some kind of implied consent had you been old enough to consent, that would have been a perversion of the law then as much as now. We just read the fricking laws a bit more closely now.
I can't even comment on your mother's involvement. Sure I can. WTF. I'm all for you not feeling traumatized. I think sometimes we shape abused people's feelings toward worse outcomes than they'd have if left to cope. So stay with your feelings about the impact this had, but as a separate issue, the adults in your story all failed miserably as human beings.
It wasn't until a discussion with my wife a few years ago that it hit me: women are treated fundamentally different than men.
It's a simple sentence, but if you're a man you're just not going to fully understand what that means.
You're not going to fully understand the fear, intimidation and dismissiveness that women go through on a daily basis. And things like cat-calling and discrimination haven't really been discussed until the last decade. The Weinstein thing, the Cosby thing and larger extent Trump "locker-room" talk just shows how much we a society and men have to go as far as behavior is concerned with women.
Even though women should be vigilant of their surroundings that doesn't mean we accept the status quo and don't try to change our behavior around them.
Another point about this and its a BIG one, yet subtle: Saying women bear responsibility or suggesting they should try to avoid situations is very much like saying All Lives Matter, when confronted with Black Lives Matter. Instead of truly trying to understand the viewpoint, you're already providing your own and dismissing the other. Or more aptly saying..."Well discrimination/sexism happens with white men too," are just missing the point completely.
And I made that mistake when talking to my wife. At that point when I said something to the affect of "If we have a daughter, I'm going to make sure she acts responsibly when she goes out." And well like, duh, that's a no brainer, right? And when saying that, I didn't really understand or could empathize with what my wife was really trying to say.
Her points were even though a woman does everything "right," there's still a chance she could get drugged, raped or whatever. Second its about awareness and culture. These ARE issues and culturally they need to be addressed. Men need to step up and advocate more, and speak out when they see something wrong. And this extends into not just rape, but harassment and discrimination.
And how dare people act like women need to have such a guard up, and yet say we should be willing to let men into our lives, date them, love them, or trust them?? I've known men who were devastated and damaged by the thinking that women were afraid of them. Women are caught in the middle of it, damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Yeah, this is the thing. Now, we can say that if I go up to a grizzly bear, and I let it nibble my arm a little, then I try to pull away, but it eats me, it's pretty much my own stupid fault I got eaten. Because a bear is a bear and bears eat people. What else did you expect from a bear? But if we use that same argument - if I let a man make out with me, then I try to pull away, but he rapes me, it's my own stupid fault for being raped - that implies men are beasts and they just rape people. Just a fact of having a Y chromosome: probably a rapist.
I don't accept this premise, which is why I think that victim blaming is detrimental for both women AND men. It is a good illustration of how anti-woman sexism (which a lot of the common victim-blaming sentiments boil down to) can be harmful to men, too. Men should have a strong motivation for promoting in the male population better expectations about consent, self-control, respect and communication for their own self-interest, not just because it's the right thing to do.
And I made that mistake when talking to my wife. At that point when I said something to the affect of "If we have a daughter, I'm going to make sure she acts responsibly when she goes out." And well like, duh, that's a no brainer, right? And when saying that, I didn't really understand or could empathize with what my wife was really trying to say.
Her points were even though a woman does everything "right," there's still a chance she could get drugged, raped or whatever. Second its about awareness and culture. These ARE issues and culturally they need to be addressed. Men need to step up and advocate more, and speak out when they see something wrong. And this extends into not just rape, but harassment and discrimination.
People need to raise their sons to act responsibly.
Dear God... THIS... if nothing else -- this. No coddling 40 or 50 year old men enabling them to feel it's not their fault if they assault someone. Mommas boy-- not after age 12
Your title bothers me, "Shouldn't women 'take responsibility' in certain assault situations?"
No one is responsible for a crime or an assault except the one doing the crime or assault. Just because someone is impaired, or left their keys in the ignition and the door unlocked, or took a walk in the dark doesn't mean they should "take responsibility" for any crime committed against them.
If you assault someone who is impaired, alone, lost...that's 100% your crime, and you take responsibility for it, not the victim.
Being careful is one thing, but taking responsibility for someone else's crime? No.
That guy actually dragged her behind the dumpster. He didn't find her there, he put her there.
And that case speaks very loudly to the biggest issue I've got. The judge let him off so as "not to ruin his life." Clearly stating that any male's life is more important than any female's life. Period, end of story. Her experience was trivialized, and we all got to hear about his stupid swim team scores, like that matters.
I understand that sometimes it's dodgy to build a solid case, but in the Brock Turner case, they had witnesses and ample evidence. This wasn't some "he said/she said" matter. He dragged an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and assaulted her. And got a slap on the wrist! And all sorts of sympathy, like SHE was trying to ruin HIM. wtf??
It's like...ok, so it's difficult to prevent rape from ever happening...and it's difficult to prove when it does...but when it happens, and when there's a solid case, could we at LEAST get appropriate justice?
I told another story earlier in this thread of an assault at a party on a high school acquaintance by several boys, a few of which were friends of mine. THAT was way, way more traumatic to me. Still is, really. And that's in a way what we're talking about here. OK, so I took a stranger home and got date raped, but this girl went and made herself vulnerable to people we had known for years, boys I had dated, people I would have SWORN were not "rapists" by nature. And they brutalized her! And when everybody sobered up, they thought it was FUNNY.
So maybe, that's what she gets for being drunk around a bunch of boys...except that males have no need for this kind of hypervigilance. And how dare people act like women need to have such a guard up, and yet say we should be willing to let men into our lives, date them, love them, or trust them?? I've known men who were devastated and damaged by the thinking that women were afraid of them. Women are caught in the middle of it, damned if we do and damned if we don't.
This is what I have been trying to get at. Women have to be careful; men don't. Whether women are careful or not, the predator is always at fault if the women has not given consent.
Those boys who assaulted your acquaintance felt justified by her behavior and by the consumption of alcohol which lowers inhibitions, to do what they did. I wonder if any of them feel shame today for what they did?
Did the young women turn out OK?
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I'm sorry she put you in that position. In most states at least today that is statutory rape and a 14 year old can only consent with someone within like 3-4 years of their own age, give or take. So what happened to you is rape by law (today's standards, not sure how long ago this happened to you or what the law was then), no way around that. That was 100% rape and as a kid, not your fault even a little. I'm appalled your mom took two guys home, one for each of you. Jesus. Fourteen.
Thank you.
