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That's really the point of the OP. It stuns me that people are losing their minds over this. If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible. That's a duh. But there are bad people out there. It's the reason we lock our doors, watch our babies closely at the park, don't leave our purses in the car and don't walk through dark alleys alone. Folks make really unreasonable exceptions when it comes to the subject of rape. It's a problem.
If you can march for women's rights and bodily autonomy, you don't get to not own that getting drunk on a first date contributes to one's victimization. That doesn't mean they deserved it. Or that he isn't responsible. It means they might not have been raped had they not been drunk, because not all rapists are forcible rapists. Some would rather you didn't fight them at all.
I do not think any one on this thread does not believe in personal responsibility. The crux of the issue is the blame placed on the woman. Ya know, the focus is finding fault in the behavior of the woman. The focus should 100% be on the rapist and HIS actions.
Not all rapes are caused by women acting irresponsibly. I know several women who were date raped while they were sober. Victim targeting occurs. A rapist could target you simply because you look meek, you are easily overpowered, etc. The message should be that rape is not acceptable under any circumstance. Period.
Stop making excuses for rapists. A rapist is an opportunist. Just like every other criminal.
If you leave your front door unlocked, it does not excuse the behavior of a thief, murderer, rapist, etc who enter your home and cause harm. We do not hear of a murder in a home and say "well, they deserved it because they left their front door unlocked." I am sure the victim wished they locked their front door. But we don't BLAME the victim.
FWIW, I teach my daughter to not dress promiscuously, do not get black out drunk, avoid sexual innuendo on dates, do not walk alone, employ the buddy system when you are out, trust your instinct, etc I teach her to avoid behaviors that will draw unwanted attention to herself. And guess what? She could still be a rape victim through no fault of her own.
I do not think any one on this thread does not believe in personal responsibility. The crux of the issue is the blame placed on the woman. Ya know, the focus is finding fault in the behavior of the woman. The focus should 100% be on the rapist and HIS actions.
What part of "If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible." eludes you?
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Not all rapes are caused by women acting irresponsibly.
So some are?
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Stop making excuses for rapists. A rapist is an opportunist. Just like every other criminal.
What part of "If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible." eludes you?
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If you leave your front door unlocked, it does not excuse the behavior of a thief, murderer, rapist, etc who enter your home and cause harm. We do not hear of a murder in a home and say "well, they deserved it because they left their front door unlocked." I am sure the victim wished they locked their front door. But we don't BLAME the victim.
What part of "If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible." eludes you?
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FWIW, I teach my daughter to not dress promiscuously, do not get black out drunk, avoid sexual innuendo on dates, do not walk alone, employ the buddy system when you are out, trust your instinct, etc I teach her to avoid behaviors that will draw unwanted attention to herself. And guess what? She could still be a rape victim through no fault of her own.
No ****.
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What do you teach your sons?
If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible and that being drunk makes you a target for all kinds of things. I simply don't make rape the exception like so many here.
I'm happy to discuss this with you, but I'm going to ask you to pay attention. Otherwise, don't bother.
Well AGAIN, rape may be the ONE crime where because consent is so hard to prove or disprove and so many want to act like women just lie about it all the time and ruin the lives of poor innocent men...that the focus on the aspect of "use common sense and keep yourself safe" actually interferes with the getting of justice. And that's why terms like "rape culture" get thrown around, when you have a culture where judges worry more about the consequences to the man of being "ruined" and you immediately have people jumping into every conversation, every news comment thread, questioning whether there is enough evidence and how could it possibly have been a situation where the victim is lying...
Show me another category of crime where that is the case!
When the police shoot someone, the thing that crops up is always "in what way did they deserve it?" because there is this desperate need to prove that the good guys and the bad guys are who we think they are. It is very similar in many cases of rape and sexual assault and such misconduct. Way, way more effort to "presume innocence" than you get in other kinds of criminal cases.
People don't see a news story about some dude getting arrested for having robbed a bank or a convenience store, and say, "Well, are we quite sure the cashier did not offer him a gift of that money? Are we certain the cashier or teller wasn't making an easy target of themselves? That camera footage is awful grainy...I dunno..." Like NEVER do we question so many other kinds of crime.
And the problem with it, is that it punishes victims and it protects rapists.
Well AGAIN, rape may be the ONE crime where because consent is so hard to prove or disprove and so many want to act like women just lie about it all the time and ruin the lives of poor innocent men...that the focus on the aspect of "use common sense and keep yourself safe" actually interferes with the getting of justice. And that's why terms like "rape culture" get thrown around, when you have a culture where judges worry more about the consequences to the man of being "ruined" and you immediately have people jumping into every conversation, every news comment thread, questioning whether there is enough evidence and how could it possibly have been a situation where the victim is lying...
Show me another category of crime where that is the case!
When the police shoot someone, the thing that crops up is always "in what way did they deserve it?" because there is this desperate need to prove that the good guys and the bad guys are who we think they are. It is very similar in many cases of rape and sexual assault and such misconduct. Way, way more effort to "presume innocence" than you get in other kinds of criminal cases.
People don't see a news story about some dude getting arrested for having robbed a bank or a convenience store, and say, "Well, are we quite sure the cashier did not offer him a gift of that money? Are we certain the cashier or teller wasn't making an easy target of themselves? That camera footage is awful grainy...I dunno..." Like NEVER do we question so many other kinds of crime.
And the problem with it, is that it punishes victims and it protects rapists.
I think the focus is largely on the visual of rape and resulting emotion tied to it vs. the degrees of opportunity/responsibility and victimization. No two assaults or victims are the same. Contributing factors are not blame. It's an always/never, either/or, black/white argument that leaves no room for honest examination. The OP mentioned alcohol. That is a HUGE contributor, one that we don't apply equally to the victim and the perp, as demonstrated in this thread. It's a discussion we really need to have on a national level and as it applies to the laws. Because not every rape case is a rape case. And the goal of the law is not to "protect rapists" but to protect the innocent, be it a victim or an alleged perp. Seems we have lost sight of that.
And not many folks recognize that trauma is actually exacerbated by the very people who defend victims. Statements like "He got (insufficient jail time) and she got a life sentence" are complete and utter nonsense. It is not a life sentence, it doesn't have to ruin you, and we should stop treating women like weak, fragile children who have no say or power over their own bodies and recovery.
That's really the point of the OP. It stuns me that people are losing their minds over this. If an assault takes place, the assailant is responsible. That's a duh. But there are bad people out there. It's the reason we lock our doors, watch our babies closely at the park, don't leave our purses in the car and don't walk through dark alleys alone. Folks make really unreasonable exceptions when it comes to the subject of rape. It's a problem.
If you can march for women's rights and bodily autonomy, you should be able to recognize that getting drunk on a first date absolutely contributes to one's victimization. That doesn't mean they deserved it. Or that he isn't responsible. It means they might not have been raped had they not been drunk, because not all rapists are forcible rapists. Some would rather you didn't fight them at all.
It's NOT a "duh". Because the duh is ALWAYS followed by a dozen "buts" - we bend over backwards to find as many things as possible that the victim did...we say that doesn't absolve the rapist...so why do we do it? Endlessly. We get something from it...appearance, clothing, location, time of day, liquor/drugs involved, past relationship/s. Those things only determine WHICH woman is the "lucky" victim of the day...the rapist is still the rapist.
We can talk about TRYING to stay safe but that is a completely different conversation that should not occur in the same breath as the rapist being fully accountable for their actions. They were smart...picked the best victim they could find at the time. The victim wasn't a judo expert in a nun's habit out in the public square at noon, stone cold sober....so what? Don't worry, she'll beat herself up plenty about why it happened and what she coulda woulda should done, even if it was nothing...so now let's go after the criminal.
And not many folks recognize that trauma is actually exacerbated by the very people who defend victims. Statements like "He got (insufficient jail time) and she got a life sentence" are complete and utter nonsense. It is not a life sentence, it doesn't have to ruin you, and we should stop treating women like weak, fragile children who have no say or power over their own bodies and recovery.
Unless you personally have been the subject of a violent rape... you have no clue as to the physical and mental damage that it can cause. The old "just get over" it is way easier said than done. I wish I could show you the pictures. I was unrecognizable. The right side of my face was swollen, the whites of my eyes were blood red from the blood vessels bursting when he was trying to strangle me. I have a pernamant reminder ... a bite scar on my shoulder that I can see every time I get out of the shower and look into the mirror. A sound, sight, or smell can bring it all rushing back out of nowhere at any given time. The nightmares have subsided for the most part, but every now and them they come back. Any control I had over my body was taken away by a stranger who was hell bent on hurting and having his way with me. Weak.... I was definitely weaker than he.
He had me by about a foot in height and 70 pounds in weight. He fractured my eye socket, three ribs, two fingers.... I got eight stitches in my mouth, not to mention the bruises, contusions and scratches. I won't even tell you what he did to me sexually . By telling us that we should just suck it up and get on with our lives (which is what most of us have no choice to do anyway) you're putting the onus on us for something we had no control over to begin with. It may not be something that I dwell on, but to say it didn't or shouldn't effect the rest of my life ( how I wish) is rubbish. I am out there doing my thing everyday, but there was a cost to what happened to me and as much as I'd like to forget it ever happened... I can't. I am by no means a girly girl, but I am not afraid to say that I was terrified and it shook me to my core.
And no, I am not feeling sorry for myself or seeking sympathy... just tellin it like it is.
Last edited by Sydney123; 10-24-2017 at 05:28 PM..
It's NOT a "duh". Because the duh is ALWAYS followed by a dozen "buts" - we bend over backwards to find as many things as possible that the victim did...we say that doesn't absolve the rapist...so why do we do it? Endlessly. We get something from it...appearance, clothing, location, time of day, liquor/drugs involved, past relationship/s. Those things only determine WHICH woman is the "lucky" victim of the day...the rapist is still the rapist.
There is literally nothing about examining and acknowledging the contributors that says a rapist is not a rapist. Nothing.
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We can talk about TRYING to stay safe but that is a completely different conversation that should not occur in the same breath as the rapist being fully accountable for their actions.
Why not? One doesn't invalidate the other.
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They were smart...picked the best victim they could find at the time. The victim wasn't a judo expert in a nun's habit out in the public square at noon, stone cold sober....so what?
It's not big enough a deal to you. OK. Don't have the discussion then.
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Don't worry, she'll beat herself up plenty about why it happened and what she coulda woulda should done, even if it was nothing...so now let's go after the criminal.
Can't WE have the discussion and still go after the criminal?
Unless you personally have been the subject of a violent rape... you have no clue as to the physical and mental damage that it can cause.
I have experienced sexual assault by 4 different people. It was violent with two. I'm not trying to compete here, but if one needs to be a rape victim in order to speak on the matter, I'm more than qualified.
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The old "just get over" it is way easier said than done.
Who told you to get over it? Let me at 'em.
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I wish I could show you the pictures. I was unrecognizable. The right side of my face was swollen, the whites of my eyes were blood red from the blood vessels bursting when he was trying to strangle me. I have a pernamant reminder ... a bite scar on my shoulder that I can see every time I get out of the shower and look into the mirror. A sound, sight, or smell can bring it all rushing back out of nowhere at any given time. The nightmares have subsided for the most part, but every now and them they come back. Any control I had over my body was taken away by a stranger who was hell bent on hurting and having his way with me. Weak.... I was definitely weaker than he. He had me by about a foot in height and 70 pounds in weight. He fractured my eye socket, three ribs, two fingers.... I got eight stitches in my mouth, not to mention the bruises, contusions and scratches. I won't even tell you what he did to me sexually . By telling us that we should just suck it up and get on with our lives (which is what most of us have no choice to do anyway) you're putting the onus on us for something we had no control over to begin with. It may not be something that I dwell on, but to say it didn't or shouldn't effect the rest of my life ( how I wish) is rubbish. I am out there doing my thing everyday, but there was a cost to what happened to me and as much as I'd like to forget it ever happened... I can't. I am by no means a girly girl, but I am not afraid to say that I was terrified and it shook me to my core.
And no, I am not feeling sorry for myself or seeking sympathy... just tellin it like it is.
I am so very sorry about your experience. Truly. But please don't take my words to mean that there is anything wrong with being afraid. What I said was that it does not have to be a "life sentence", that you absolutely have a say and power over your own body (generally) and your recovery. The widespread suggestion that it will ruin your for life only exacerbates your pain. I am 150% against that mentality. It doesn't have to be that way and many women have proven it's not.
"Angry much? Have you 'raped' a drunk person before? Get help."
This is from the anonymous person who repped me, who didn't think it might be talking to a survivor of sexual assault. This is what anti-intellectualism looks like.
Can't WE have the discussion and still go after the criminal?
NO - we can't. Because the discussion immediately moves away from the criminal and becomes centered on what the victim did or did not do. Not what the criminal did.
Oh, of course, we KNOW we can't stop HIM...so here lady, here's a scorecard of what YOU did wrong, just so you don't screw up AGAIN in the future. We feel really really bad for you but, but, but here's what YOU did.
There is a benefit to the rest of us for continuing to blame victims of crimes - here are just a couple theories:
Just World Hypothesis
The just world hypothesis is based on an individual’s belief that the world is a safe,
just place where people get what they deserve. These individuals believe that the social system that affects them is fair, legitimate, and justifiable. The perception of these individuals is that good things happen to good people, and bad things to bad people. In this way, one who believes in a just world maintains their belief because there is not an innocent, suffering victim, but someone who “deserves” their misfortune.
Invulnerability Theory
Literature on Invulnerability Theory claims that those who subscribe to the theory blame victims as a means to protect their own feelings of invulnerability. The Invulnerability Theory is based on subscribers blaming the victim in order to feel safe themselves. Even friends and family members of crime victims may blame the victim in order to reassure themselves.
A common statement would be:
“She was raped because she walked home alone in the dark. I would never do that, so I won’t be raped.”
The theory states that victims are a reminder of our own vulnerability. Individuals do not want to consider the possibility of losing control over their life or body; by deciding that a victim brought on the attack themselves, they create a false sense of security.
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