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The account makes so much more sense than the gospels as they are written. It leaves little room to question or doubt. It sounds realistic - believable.
The miracles in the gospels are obvious clues that the stories are made up. Water into wine? Feeding five thousand after the sermon on the mount. Five thousand listening to a sermon with no sound system? The feeding them with two fish and five loaves was the easy part. It didn't happen.
And, as I heard a comedian ask, why didn't the other 4998 bring any food with them? What were they thinking?
In what form? Did he talk to you directly? If so, what did his voice sound like? How did you discern this from any other possible source? It seems that every question you try to answer simply raises many more questions. I have found this to be typical of most Muslims who try to interject.
In what form? Did he talk to you directly? If so, what did his voice sound like? How did you discern this from any other possible source? It seems that every question you try to answer simply raises many more questions. I have found this to be typical of most Muslims who try to interject.
That's we're this is going. It is just the old relying on the Quran as the word of God, and anything that differs from it is wrong.
I know we are here beating up on Christianity in its' worst form all the time, but even that is reasonable and open to discussion compared to Islam, as we see from SoothSeller, here.
The account makes so much more sense than the gospels as they are written. It leaves little room to question or doubt. It sounds realistic - believable.
The miracles in the gospels are obvious clues that the stories are made up. Water into wine? Feeding five thousand after the sermon on the mount. Five thousand listening to a sermon with no sound system? The feeding them with two fish and five loaves was the easy part. It didn't happen.
The conclusion that Christians make, that the tomb was empty because the corpse came back to life and left of it's own volition, is just plain silly. It realistically has no likelihood of being true at all, and never did.
It was common practice among the Jews in Biblical times for families to bury their dead with other family members. The hand cut new tomb that the Gospels describe which Joseph had build would never have been intended for a single person. These sorts of tombs were common among the rich. They were actually status symbols. They were built with a slab for laying out the body. The practice was to leave the body to it's natural decaying process, and to then collect the bones and place them in stone ossuaries. The ossuary would typically have the name of the deceased carved into it. Then the ossuary would be placed in a niche. Whole generations of family members would be interred in this manner. Typically the only members who were not directly related by blood would be the wives. Interring Jesus, a non family member, in the tomb of another tomb would have been exceptionally unusual. Especially since he had his own family in Galilee, which was only about 65 miles away. If you consider Gospels John's account of the over preparation of the body, coated with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh, this only really makes sense if the body was intended to be moved elsewhere. Myrrh is a strongly scented type of pitch. Ground up and mixed with aloe it would create a type of resin paste. Perfect for sealing off the body and reducing the smell of decay. The account in Gospel John all but screams that the body was being prepared for a trip.
John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Keeping in mind that the body had been granted to Joseph by Pilate, and that he had every LEGAL right to inter it where ever he chose, if he really wanted to do Jesus a great honor, he would have had the body shipped back to the family in Galilee. The fact that the apostles journeyed to Galilee after the crucifixion seems to pretty well seal the deal. Everything is explained as perfectly natural occurrences.
Christians of course don't WANT perfectly natural occurrences. They want the miraculous.
thrillobyte started a string entitled "A Challenge for Christians: Show Us Your Very Best Proof For Jesus." That string was restricted to extra-Biblical evidence on the existence of Jesus however. So I began this string with no restrictions at all. You Christians who genuinely believe that Jesus was not only actually resurrected from the dead, but that he subsequently flew off up into the sky, please provide your best evidence and rationale for believing that to be true. And for those of you who consider this to be a trap, of course I intend to rebut your claims. But if your claims are valid, my efforts to rebut them will not only be useless, they will be obviously useless. So how can you lose? The only thing you have to fear, perhaps, is discovering that your reasons for believing that Jesus was resurrected from the dead were nothing but empty claims and baseless assertions all along. If your beliefs are nonsense, you would like to know that. Wouldn't you? Or is it a fact that you prefer to continue believing a comforting lie then to know the truth?
Simply establish that believing that Jesus was resurrected from the dead is a reasonable thing to believe. That's all I am asking for.
first from the eyewitnesses from the bible is really all that is or was ever needed by every other standard applied to every other human in history..
but recently he also gave us this and Akiane and baby Burpo.
SHROUD A NEW ASTONISHING PHENOMENON DISCOVERED IN THIS FIND
then see it with your own eyes.. God actually took pictures of his ressurrection ... and let's you see the holes in his own hands in mordern times.. . observe for yourself the lower set of hands in the picture with the dark and light set of hands. there is a hole in that wrist and light set of hands his overelaid and his wrist is covered.
then for fun blow up parts of the shroud to see all the jewels and other objects I have no clue what they are .. maybe giant keys, maybe locks and sword and candlesticks. giant jewels around the face . rev 1 appears to be pictured there on the shroud as best I can see. and that hand with the hole in the wrist is priceless..he knew what he pictured on that shroud and it took him to develop the cameras and processes for us to witness also what was pictured there. .
Some of us think the crucifixion might have taken place but that it was final. Although there is the swoon theory and a possible scenario has been suggested for an actual survival. I used to like the idea that the man (and he was just a man and no more) planned his own crucifixion out of some crazy zeal and actually managed to pull it off (although I doubt he realized just how bad the experience was going to be). However, the likelihood of that being realistic is questionable. For starters, we don't even know for sure whether the man actually existed.
Jesus is a messenger from Allah same as Noah and Moses and Mahammad
Jesus is not the son of Allah and not a god
he was born without a father
he is the soul of Allah
he was not crucified but it was appeared to the public that he was crucified because at that some events had happened that made the public believe that he was crucified similar when it appeared to the Americans that they are under the attack from the Martians in 30 October 1938
The four Gospels represent the ONLY information on the life Jesus that anyone supposes has any connection to valid history. And a good deal of what is contained in the NT strains credulity. In fact, it is flatly unbelievable. Here is a short amended version of events that closely follows the accepted story, but which does not require any recourse to any supernatural occurrences. I am not claiming that this is what actually occurred, simply that it explains the events without recourse to supernatural claims.
Matthew 27: [62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, [63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. [64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. [65] Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. [66] So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
The day after the crucifixion chief priests went out to Joseph's tomb, and finding it covered with a large stone, and owing to the nature of the day (the Sabbath and Passover) did not open and search it, but instead secured what was an already empty tomb! Why was the tomb already empty? Because Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, never intended that his brand new family crypt should be the final resting place for Jesus, but only used it as a convenient place to wash and prepare the body. Because the day was late and his tomb was "nigh at hand" (John 19:42) to the place where Jesus had been crucified. The next day when the priests secured Joseph's tomb, the body of Jesus was already being relocated to it's actual intended final resting place by his disciples.
And so exactly what the priests feared the disciples intended to do is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Joseph's tomb proved to be empty. Six weeks later the disciples returned to Jerusalem and began to circulate the rumor that Jesus had "risen" from the dead. Something only they witnessed, according to them.
So where would that final resting place have been? It was a strong custom among the Jews to bury their dead with family members. Any family of any substance had a personal family crypt where family members were interred together. Rich folks like Joseph could afford hand cut family crypts to be constructed. Folks of lesser means tended to use natural caves and caverns, usually with the family named carved at the entrance. If Joseph the rich man truly wanted to honor Jesus, he would have had the body transported home to be buried with is own family, not inter him with Joseph's family. Home to his family in Galilee, about 65 miles to the north east of Jerusalem. All down hill.
Matthew 28: [16] Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
The remaining apostles all journeyed to Galilee after the crucifixion!
The only thing I am assuming is that Joseph of Arimethea never intended to use his tomb as the final resting place for Jesus, only used it as a convenient place to wash and prepare the body, and had the body shipped home to be buried by Jesus' own family members.
So, is this they way things actually played out? There is no way to know just how much of the story is valid. This particular accounting makes perfect sense however. It DOES NOT lead to supposing that a corpse came back to life and subsequently flew away I am afraid.
here is the real truth from the fourth Holy Book and the final.
The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority.
And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.
Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
first from the eyewitnesses from the bible is really all that is or was ever needed by every other standard applied to every other human in history..
How many eyewitness accounts do you notice?
That would be NONE.
Along about 55 AD, or a quarter of a century after the execution of Jesus was supposed to have occurred, Paul wrote that some 500 of the followers of Jesus witnessed the "risen" Jesus on one particular occasion. This narrative, contained in his first letter to the Corinthians, represents the very first written account of the risen Jesus ever. But Paul did not become a Christian until several years after Jesus was supposed to have been executed, and Paul was not himself a personal witness to ANY of the events detailed in the Gospels. Including reports of post crucifixion appearances of Jesus. The Gospels themselves were written years later still. But the Gospels were written anonymously. They do not represent eyewitness accounts. The Gospels represent the nature of the stories and rumors about Jesus then in circulation at the time each Gospel was written late in the first century. NO ONE RECORDED ANYTHING AT THE TIME THE EVENTS WERE CLAIMED TO HAVE OCCURRED! Is the story of a corpse coming back to life and then flying away believable? NO, OF COURSE IT ISN'T!
Acts tells us exactly who began the rumors of the "risen" Jesus. His disciples. Who saw the "risen" Jesus? His disciples and ONLY his disciples. Who saw Jesus bodily lift off of the ground and fly off up into the sky. His disciples and ONLY his disciples. Are such reports believable? NO!
Quote:
Originally Posted by n..Xuipa
God actually took pictures of his ressurrection ... and let's you see the holes in his own hands in mordern times.. . observe for yourself the lower set of hands in the picture with the dark and light set of hands. there is a hole in that wrist and light set of hands his overelaid and his wrist is covered.
then for fun blow up parts of the shroud to see all the jewels and other objects I have no clue what they are .. maybe giant keys, maybe locks and sword and candlesticks. giant jewels around the face . rev 1 appears to be pictured there on the shroud as best I can see. and that hand with the hole in the wrist is priceless..he knew what he pictured on that shroud and it took him to develop the cameras and processes for us to witness also what was pictured there. .
There are several questions concerning the shroud to be considered. First, the existence of a linen cloth with the image of a man on it was entirely unknown until it first turned up in France during the 14th century. In 1988 the shroud underwent extensive testing and radiocarbon dating. The age of the cotton was determined to be from the 14th century.
John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury
No traces of myrrh and aloe have been found on the Turin shroud.
Even the Vatican does not claim that the shroud is authentic.
Several attempts to reproduce the shroud have been made. The closest results occurred by wrapping a perspiring man in the very same type of Egyptian linen for about an hour, then placing the linen in an oven at low temperature for about an hour, and then giving the linen a washing. The result was that the linen yellowed slightly, but retained a faint image of the man which became very clear when viewed as a photographic negative. The oils from the man's body soaked into the cotton fibers to lesser and greater degrees, leaving lighter and darker areas that could be seen as an image of the man.
here is the real truth from the fourth Holy Book and the final.
The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said: Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority.
And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.
Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
I certainly agree that Jesus was not resurrected from the dead. But the Quran has some believability problems of it's own. I would be remiss and one-sided if, while in the process of denying the reasonable truth and accuracy of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, I did not also point out the inequities and flat unbelievability of some of the events depicted in the Quran.
According to the Sūrat al-Isrāʼ, or the night journey of Muhammad, Muhammad rode a flying steed Buraq up to heaven, where he visited the prophets, including Jesus, the angels, and then eventually met with Allah Himself. This story is confirmed in Quran 17:
1. Glory to Him who journeyed His servant by night, from the Sacred Mosque, to the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We have blessed, in order to show him of Our wonders. He is the Listener, the Beholder.
This compares with the story of the bodily ascension of of Jesus to heaven depicted in Acts 1:9. But you see, we have been to the moon. The US currently has rover robots operating on Mars. We have telescopes that can peer billions of light years into space. There is no heaven to be observed "out there."
Both the OT and the NT contain claims of events that are frankly silly. The story of Muhammad's night journey is just such a story. As is the story that Muhammad, in a demonstration of his power, once split the moon.
Quranic verses 54:1-2
The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].
And if they see a miracle, they turn away and say, "Passing magic."
For unbelievability this claim compares well with the claim in the Book of Joshua that Joshua commanded the sun to stop in the sky for a full day. They simply are not credible.
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