Texas; is it part of the South or the Southwest? (Houston: subdivisions, agriculture)

[R1070]

Most restaurants bring packets of sugar in Dallas. I think chains like Chik Fil A have made sweet tea more popular all over the country.

[Treasurevalley92]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

I just want to point something out. Segregation was not only a southern thing. It was rampant throughout the country, and the northeast, as well as the south.

In Boston until this law passed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts_v._City_of_Boston

In 1857, the United States Supreme Court ruled that African Americans were inferior to white Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott

The Supreme Court of the United States also ruled in 1883 that discrimination by individuals or private businesses is constitutional.

Also during the "Jim Crow" era, AAs were segregated in the southwest as well as the midwest, right alongside the south. Also, Mexican Americans were segregated during this time and in these regions as well.

The US Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of Jim Crow laws in 1896. Not a southern court, the US Supreme Court.

Up until the 1950s, US armed forces had "black units" that were typically led by white officers, but segregated along color lines.

Laws against interracial marriage were in place in many states (not just southern states) till 1967.

One other point - it's easy to say "segregation is an abomination and should be outlawed" (which I happen to believe is a true statement) when nearly everyone where you live is one color (white) anyway. Even today, with more mobility and less lawful discrimination, most of the African American population remains in the South. The majority of states in other regions have five percent or less African American population. As a southerner I really can hardly imagine this but it's true. So while they could pass laws and express moral outrage, they didn't have to actually implement these laws much, if at all. They did not have to live with the realities of integration much.
CensusScope -- Demographic Maps: African-American Population

That being said, of course I am in favor of integration, the Civil Rights Act, and all that. In fact, I live in a very diverse neighborhood, and as a Texan - which I love being - I voluntarily live in one of only four states where white, Non Hispanic folks make up less than 50 percent of the population. But I'm just saying that the demographics of the southern states are a LOT different from the demographics of other regions. A LOT different. And yet, even with significantly fewer African Americans (or other minorities) most other states legally supported and enforced segregation on many levels till well into the 20th century. It just didn't have as much impact or get as much attention because so few minorities lived in many of those areas.

I mean yeah, I think everyone agrees that racism was rampant back in the day, and it isn't strictly a southern thing and that it's bad and most people will agree to some degree or another it is still an issue.

That said, that doesn't change that the Jim Crow era laws are a southern thing. Sure you have redlining in northern cities, but having separate water fountains in the Dallas Courthouse, yeah you didn't even have that in my Dad's home town in Indiana which was notorious for having a KKK presence.

I'm not saying the south has a monopoly on mistreating minorities, my home town once had one of the largest Chinese populations in the country, but due to alot of factors, including harassment and legal pressure and a decline in mining most of them left. Who knows, a bunch might have stayed after the mining boom if they had felt welcome.

But yeah, Dallas has alot of Jim Crow era history (the good and heroic and of course the bad) and that is distinctively southern.

[KathrynAragon]

Originally Posted by Treasurevalley92

I mean yeah, I think everyone agrees that racism was rampant back in the day, and it isn't strictly a southern thing and that it's bad and most people will agree to some degree or another it is still an issue.

That said, that doesn't change that the Jim Crow era laws are a southern thing. Sure you have redlining in northern cities, but having separate water fountains in the Dallas Courthouse, yeah you didn't even have that in my Dad's home town in Indiana which was notorious for having a KKK presence.

I'm not saying the south has a monopoly on mistreating minorities, my home town once had one of the largest Chinese populations in the country, but due to alot of factors, including harassment and legal pressure and a decline in mining most of them left. Who knows, a bunch might have stayed after the mining boom if they had felt welcome.

But yeah, Dallas has alot of Jim Crow era history (the good and heroic and of course the bad) and that is distinctively southern.

That wasn't even my point but OK.

[cBach]

Wildfires - yeah it's part of the West...

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by walker1962

Its Texas, its not southern. Texas has too many other influences you don't see states to its east....
To say Texas is a southwest is accurate because it reflects a mix of culture/location/topography.

It also has many attributes you don't find towards the west, so it's no more accurate to call it southwestern than it is to call it southern.

In my opinion the central part of the state is best described as "Texas" while the borderlands will favor whatever outlying area they're next to.

The location and size of our state makes it obvious that it's where multiple regions meet. Mix Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mexico and New Mexico together and what will you get: Texas.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by SouthernBoy205

They are different types of southern. More than slightly.

Based on what? The fact is, these two cities are about the same age, located in the same state a mere 3 hours from each other. There's simply been too much historical interaction between the two for them to be all that different. Do you have any idea how many Houstonians have familial ties to Dallas and vice versa?

In fact, I'd say that the only real difference in southerness comes from what transplants each city has received. Houston gets more from Louisiana while Dallas sees more from Arkansas, Mississippi, etc.

[biscuit_head]

Originally Posted by Frustratedintelligence

Based on what? The fact is, these two cities are about the same age, located in the same state a mere 3 hours from each other. There's simply been too much historical interaction between the two for them to be all that different. Do you have any idea how many Houstonians have familial ties to Dallas and vice versa?

In fact, I'd say that the only real difference in southerness comes from what transplants each city has received. Houston gets more from Louisiana while Dallas sees more from Arkansas, Mississippi, etc.

You forgot Oklahoma transplants to North Texas/DFW

Houston has more of a Gulf South element/vibe/culture to it that you just don’t have in Dallas. Dallas is more Western south in culture with elements of the plains Midwest to it. Culturally, Dallas has a lot more in common with Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Kansas City, Little Rock, or Shreveport than it does with Houston, which seems to share more commonalities with Lafayette, Baton Rouge, Mobile, or even Tampa.

[TheOverdog]

I don't get why people say Dallas isn't like the midwest. It's very similar to Indy, Kansas City, and the other, more contemporary non-rust belt, midwestern cities.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by biscuit_head

Culturally, Dallas has a lot more in common with Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Kansas City, Little Rock, or Shreveport than it does with Houston, which seems to share more commonalities with Lafayette, Baton Rouge, Mobile, or even Tampa.

Dallas' cultural ties to Shreveport and OKC are a given, considering its proximity to those two cities. How it is more like the rest of that list than it is to Houston...as a near lifelong resident of Texas, I just don't see it. DFW has always been somewhat of an outlier but not that much.

I think when you only focus on what one city has that the other doesn't (or has less of) it's easy to say that they're vastly different. Instead one should look at the total range of influences (such as the sharp increase in Mexican culture that both cities have seen) to get a better idea of how closely they're related.

[Frustratedintelligence]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

I don't get why people say Dallas isn't like the midwest. It's very similar to Indy, Kansas City, and the other, more contemporary non-rust belt, midwestern cities.

I see some parallels but I think the overall connection is a bit overstated. Dallas agriculture was based on cotton, not wheat and corn.

DFW also has alligators. That fact alone makes it more like Florida than Kansas (not really but you see where I'm going with this)