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Good research. Those numbers, which I had a rough idea of, but did not have the time to research… underscores exactly what my point was. Relativity. Unfortunately, these debates often turn into country vs. country and the hard data and facts get lost:
The six warmest months in Atlanta (May through October) are from 5 to 10 F WARMER than the six warmest months in Melbourne (November through April). In the warm season, Melbourne has mean temps more like the Portland, OR or upper New England (meaning coolish). I would think that someone from Atlanta, where the warmest month has a mean temp of 80 F (27 C) would find great mirth in the warmest month in Melbourne (January) being only 67 F. Based on the 67 F mean temp in Melbourne in the warmest month – I’ll bet many people from Atlanta (and maybe even Philly) would wear a light jacket often in Melbourne in summer. I know I would.
Also, you’re quite right of course about cool summer days in Melbourne. 60 F (15 C) summer days are almost unheard of in Atlanta, and many other areas of the USA. Melbourne gets only 20 days per year with highs above 86 F. If your data is correct and that figure is right (only 20 days on average exceed 86 F in Melbourne in summer) – then I would now argue that Melbourne barley has a summer compared to what Atlanta experiences. As anyone knows who has been to/lived in Atlanta - midday temps in the middle 80’s (29 – 31 C) are very common in summer, and there are often weeks on end with daily highs in the low/ middle 90’s (33 – 35 C). Sydney and especially Melbourne - just don’t have anything close to that type of heat in summer.
Your image adjustment of Eureka, CA is the poster child of exactly what I mean how palm trees can give a false image of a climate (like Melbourne) being warm. I too have been to coastal northern California. However, unlike you, I was there in MID SUMMER (early July). The stiff wind, stratus, cool onshore flow, and high temps that struggled to get out of the upper 60‘s F felt like mid fall in other parts of the USA I’ve been. Yet there were palm trees – lol. FS stated that palms don’t survive in Atlanta –and obviously that is an error. However, my point is not that palm trees grow in Atlanta, or that Atlanta is warmer in winter than Melbourne or Sydney…only that while many southern hemisphere climates might have few frosts and more palm trees than a place like Atlanta – this is not nescssleay an indication of a warmer climate. I don’t care if 100 ft coconut palms grew in Melbourne…my point was that most folks from Atlanta would find Melbourne cool a good portion of the year.
Just so I don't get accused of bad research, lol, Melb gets 29.9 days above 86F, but only 20 of them occur in the three summer months. The other 10 occur on either side of the three summer months. Sorry for the confusion, as I could have stated that better.
You're making the assumption that most Atlantans like their summer weather. My guess is that at least half would find Melbourne summers refreshing. While I usually fall under the heat lover side in the hot vs cold arguments, I'm not sure how much I'd prefer Atlanta's summers over Melbourne's.
Melbourne's average lows is 58°F, scarcely any lower than Western MA. The amount of times I wear a jacket during the summer is few, probably a few times late at night the whole summer. Melbourne's issue is its variable not its average. Its average January day 79/58 is a temperature that I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain "it's too cool" except as beach weather.
In a relative sense, Melbourne summers are cool. But the average day, 78/58 is still warm weather not cool weather. The mean temperature of Melbourne in the summer is the same as where I lived in upstate NY; I thought the summers there were warm but not that hot and definitely not cool.
They are def not as cool as Eureka, so in that sense you are right. I think an avg high low of 79/58 would be pretty much a mid sept day in Philly. Not summer, but not quite fall either. Kind of a hybrid summer/fall maybe. Certainly warmer than New Zealand and the UK so not cool in that sense.
The thing about the palm trees in Eureka was intersting to me was really how cold I felt there after leaving Philly right after a hot labor day weekend. I was literally freezing. The first night there I went to the indoor hotel swimming pool/hot tub. There was a local couple in there and we got talking. They told me local people paid to go to the indoor hotel swimming pool because it was too cold all year round to go swimming outside. Avg high temps are in the mid 60's.
So yeah, a place like the south coast of the UK in Cornwall can grow some cool loving palm trees, but the high temps in a place like Truro are in the mid 60's in summer. You certainly don't see Brits flocking there as they do in Spain. You can stand there all day in summer freezing with your jacket on in Truro looking up proudly at your palm trees and then pat yourself on the back for living in such a "warm subtropical" climate. Ha ha.
I'd rather deal with four months of cold sunny weather, than have that blah cloudy, cool summer with indoor swimming. I mean think about it, we get more possible sun (49%) in our darkest dreariest month than a place like London in the height of summer.
I wouldn't put Melbourne in the same summer category as Eureka or the cool coastal UK.
You're making the assumption that most Atlantans like their summer weather. My guess is that at least half would find Melbourne summers refreshing. While I usually fall under the heat lover side in the hot vs cold arguments, I'm not sure how much I'd prefer Atlanta's summers over Melbourne's.
Melbourne's average lows is 58°F, scarcely any lower than Western MA. The amount of times I wear a jacket during the summer is few, probably a few times late at night the whole summer. Melbourne's issue is its variable not its average. Its average January day 79/58 is a temperature that I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain "it's too cool" except as beach weather.
In a relative sense, Melbourne summers are cool. But the average day, 78/58 is still warm weather not cool weather. The mean temperature of Melbourne in the summer is the same as where I lived in upstate NY; I thought the summers there were warm but not that hot and definitely not cool.
To be fair – that sounds much like a northerner speaking for a southerner. Just kidding - lol.
I lived in the southland, and many folks I came across from Georgia (mostly Savannah, however) …enjoyed their summer weather. My guess is that many folks in Atlanta, which is one of the fasting growing cities in the USA, choose to live in Atlanta rather than say Boston or Chicago because they enjoy warm and sunny weather. I tend to doubt most folks who like warm climates would find much appealing about Melbourne. There was a lad on these weather forums some years back (SAB/SABB – something), find his posts - and read his endless complaints about what he called “arctic Melbourne”. To be fair, no doubt he was a warm weather fan.
The warmest month in Melbourne has a mean temp of only 67 F – I would think ave highs are not even 79 F – more like 77 F, and that would be the warmest hr or so of the whole day. More likey - high temps in the summer in Melbourne are mostly in the lower and mid 70’s much of the time on “summer afternoons”. That’s downright cool in summer compared to Atlanta. The warmest month in Seattle has a mean temp of 66 F – just one degree cooler than Melbourne (67 F). The PNW is well known as a cool climate region in summer in the USA.
As far as what temps folks will/will not wear jackets... keep in mind you live in one of the coldest parts of the USA (New England). Having lived in Florida and having spent a lot of time in the desert southwest, Gulf and South Atlantic states, I can tell you many folks would were a light jacket if the temps are under 60 F. I have family and friends who live in Florida had they break out light jackets when the daily highs are below 70. There is much to be said for acclimation to your climate/environment. I know people who live in Miami and bring jackets in June when they go to upstate NY for vacation.
They are def not as cool as Eureka, so in that sense you are right. I think an avg high low of 79/58 would be pretty much a mid sept day in Philly. Not summer, but not quite fall either. Kind of a hybrid summer/fall maybe. Certainly warmer than New Zealand and the UK so not cool in that sense.
I guess it's obvious, but it still surprises how big of a difference there is between Philly and upstate NY (Finger Lakes) summers. 79/58 would be a perfectly normal summer day there. Melbourne has strange summers; from what I can tell it oscillates between lukewarm and hot, rather than concentrating near the mean (like it would in upstate NY). I can't figure out how sunshine compares, but my guess would be Melbourne is more a switch between cloudy and clear while the Finger Lakes would be more partly cloudy. Hours higher in upstate NY, but partially because of the higher latitude.
Here's the central plaza of Arcata, 7 miles north of Eureka. Reached 60°F in the afternoon in June. Felt warmish with the strong sun, but chilly once a wind from the ocean.
You can stand there all day in summer freezing with your jacket on in Truro looking up proudly at your palm trees and then pat yourself on the back for living in such a "warm subtropical" climate. Ha ha.
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To be honest, I too have seen the irony of this: It seems that those folks who live in climates where they tout how “palm trees grow here”…often have anything but palm tree weather.
I often think that palms are used in many martime climates or southern hemisphere climates to “give the impression of warmth”. Yet, Melbourne in the warmest month is no warmer than Augusta, Maine or Fargo, ND I think?
I don't understand why everyone is focusing on just summer weather with Sydney and Melbourne. There is more to a places climate than just summers. What about winters and the other seasons? why do you choose to ignore them? Sorry to say but both Sydney and Melbourne are much warmer in winter than Atlanta. Just look at how many frosts a year Sydney and Melbourne get than Atlanta. You can't just focus on summers when it suits your agenda. It's best to look at annual means I think in which case Sydney is warmest then Atlanta and then Melbourne.
I always wondered what those "deciles" mean, thanks for the explanation We do have days around 68-69F in summer, but they are fairly uncommon. Those 30 days that excced 30C tend to fall between 30-38C... the average number of 40C days is only 1.4. We also get quite a few days below 25C but above 20C, that's where the average is balanced out. In January 2012 for example, we got 11 days at 30C or above and 12 below 25C but above 20C. The remaining 3 were between 19 and 20C. We also only had 2 days that hit or exceed 35C - so most of the 30+ days fell in the 30-35C bracket. The average was 27.4C. Days below 20C in summer are an exception and do not occur every summer month - the lowest high in Jan 2011 was 20.9C.
Even here summer highs below 66F/19C are rare and takes a strong antarctic front to achieve. Summer cold snaps tend to bottom out in the 20-22C range.
Eureka's got a miserable climate alright! I suppose date palms can live there as their winters are also mild and I'm guessing only see a few frosts a year, and not particularly severe ones at that. That's the key to palm survival - mild winters. We just gotta get Wavehunter to understand this
Hey Tom77, you might enjoy these pics aswell!
Now, I wonder if Atlanta has fauna like this - LOL
Thanks for posting Flight. You make me want to jump thru the computer screen and escape winter right into those great shots. I used to have a diff impression of Melbourne, and I think it was thru an accident of tv. When I was a kid I was flipping channels and came across an Australian Rules Football game in Melbourne. It was summer here, and the weather in Melbourne as I saw it thru the tv was dark and rainy and everyone in the stands was wearing coats. I just thought eek how can anyone live there. ha ha now I know better. Of course later years I saw the Aus tennis open and saw differently.
Melbourne looks like a really great town. The weather doesn't look as appealing to me as say Sydney, mostly due to beaches and water temps, but not nearly as bad as the UK or coastal N. California.
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Originally Posted by nei
I guess it's obvious, but it still surprises how big of a difference there is between Philly and upstate NY (Finger Lakes) summers. 79/58 would be a perfectly normal summer day there. Melbourne has strange summers; from what I can tell it oscillates between lukewarm and hot, rather than concentrating near the mean (like it would in upstate NY). I can't figure out how sunshine compares, but my guess would be Melbourne is more a switch between cloudy and clear while the Finger Lakes would be more partly cloudy. Hours higher in upstate NY, but partially because of the higher latitude.
Here's the central plaza of Arcata, 7 miles north of Eureka. Reached 60°F in the afternoon in June. Felt warmish with the strong sun, but chilly once a wind from the ocean.
Yes indeed. I have a good friend here he grew up in Homer, NY. His family come down in winter, walk around in sweaters while we are freezing and can't believe they see grass in winter.
Our avg high/low in May is 74F/54F, and our avg high/low in Sept is 78F/60F, so actually we are warmer in September than the warmest month in Melbourne.
I don't understand why everyone is focusing on just summer weather with Sydney and Melbourne. There is more to a places climate than just summers. What about winters and the other seasons? why do you choose to ignore them? Sorry to say but both Sydney and Melbourne are much warmer in winter than Atlanta. Just look at how many frosts a year Sydney and Melbourne get than Atlanta. You can't just focus on summers when it suits your agenda. It's best to look at annual means I think in which case Sydney is warmest then Atlanta and then Melbourne.
No need to be sorry. You are right, but Sydney is warmer by 1.3F annually, not very much. Actually, Atlanta has warmer avg high temps in seven months, while Sydney is higher in the other five. Again though you are comparing a coastal sea level location with a city hundreds of miles inland at over a 1,000 ft in elevation.
I wouldn't really talk about "agendas" when you search Australia BOM looking for a warmer than Phoenix climate in the middle of nowhere with 2,000 people and 600 miles closer to the equator to pose a climate battle. Just sayin
One of my best friends hails from Atlanta, moved here at the age of 28 with her family which was nearly 20 years ago (geez how time does fly fast!). She now lives in Melbourne, her parents moved to Auckland, New Zealand after a few years here as they did not like the climate here and her brother & sister eventually shifted to Christchurch and she is coming up here in 2 weeks time for a week
She has told me that Melbourne winters, whilst cold by "our" standards, is not by theirs and in Atlanta they get snow and quite heavy frosts even on the coast - that does not happen here and summers can be very humid - bordering on oppressive quite often followed by thunderous storms.
From watching some Atlanta-based shows on TV, I have seen very browned lawns surrounded by bare-leaved trees - can tell it's winter there which seems very sunny - with locals wrapped up like they are living in the north pole and the cold see-thru air that comes out of their mouths, that really surprised me a lot as I thought Atlanta is humid cool-warm with all-year-round rain like here
Last edited by koyaanisqatsi1; 02-03-2012 at 04:40 PM..
To be fair – that sounds much like a northerner speaking for a southerner. Just kidding - lol.
I lived in the southland, and many folks I came across from Georgia (mostly Savannah, however) …enjoyed their summer weather. My guess is that many folks in Atlanta, which is one of the fasting growing cities in the USA, choose to live in Atlanta rather than say Boston or Chicago because they enjoy warm and sunny weather.
At least my impression is that people appreciate southern weather not for the temperatures in its hottest months, but for the consistent warmth in much of the rest of the year. And in many Sydney does better at providing warmth than much of the south would year-around. While many might not object to their summer weather, would they mind much if it were a bit cooler? Perhaps I'm projecting my temperature preferences, but once it gets past a certain point, it's warm enough and I care little. The rest of the year interests me more.
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The warmest month in Melbourne has a mean temp of only 67 F – I would think ave highs are not even 79 F – more like 77 F, and that would be the warmest hr or so of the whole day. More likey - high temps in the summer in Melbourne are mostly in the lower and mid 70’s much of the time on “summer afternoons”. That’s downright cool in summer compared to Atlanta. The warmest month in Seattle has a mean temp of 66 F – just one degree cooler than Melbourne (67 F). The PNW is well known as a cool climate region in summer in the USA.
It's relatively cool summer weather, at least for American standards. But it doesn't make sense to me to call anything in the 70s cool. 70s is at or slightly higher than room temperature, and low 70s can be manageable as shorts and T-shirt weather. Cool is under 60; as you say jacket weather. Sydney averages 60°F or above year around so it doesn't have cool daytime temps in any season while Atlanta does; so in some ways it makes sense to Sydney has more months of warmth.
There seems to be a language issue, you're using warmth to refer to what I'd call "heat" and using "cool" to refer to "not hot". I'm using warmth to mean "mild, likely T-shirt weather".
Also I've lived in a place with a mean temp in the summer months close to 67°F for several years; Upstate NY. I would never consider those months cool.
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As far as what temps folks will/will not wear jackets... keep in mind you live in one of the coldest parts of the USA (New England). Having lived in Florida and having spent a lot of time in the desert southwest, Gulf and South Atlantic states, I can tell you many folks would were a light jacket if the temps are under 60 F.
I often wear a light jacket as well for temps under 60°F. But as someone who lives in the northeast, you should know that the low temperature is usually experienced for only a few hours in the morning with a very fast warm up and early nighttime being much warmer than the low. I'm not out that much in the early morning, and I consider a couple hours of cool to be a nice break from the heat. Plus, it's nice to have a time not to get sweaty from bicycling.
What I really don't understand is the focus on the warmest months of the year. Most places (at least Sydney and Atlanta) have a decent amount of warmth in the summer. The bigger contrast is how well they keep their warmth the rest of the year. As the previous poster said, an Atlantan winter might be an unpleasant shock for someone coming from Australia.
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We do have days around 68-69F in summer, but they are fairly uncommon. Those 30 days that excced 30C tend to fall between 30-38C... the average number of 40C days is only 1.4. We also get quite a few days below 25C but above 20C, that's where the average is balanced out. In January 2012 for example, we got 11 days at 30C or above and 12 below 25C but above 20C. The remaining 3 were between 19 and 20C. We also only had 2 days that hit or exceed 35C - so most of the 30+ days fell in the 30-35C bracket. The average was 27.4C. Days below 20C in summer are an exception and do not occur every summer month - the lowest high in Jan 2011 was 20.9C. 
