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Old 06-28-2010, 03:39 PM
 
Location: New England
32,345 posts, read 21,185,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I don't subcribe to decision-theology...however God doesn't overlook rejecting Jesus.

For what ever reason you got this ax to grind about "orthodox christianity"....

"orthodox christianity" isn't the issue.


No God does not overlook anything , but He will have all men to be saved , this is what i believe according to the scriptures and have no need to repeat the scriptures that prove this because you know what scriptures have been presented by those of us who believe in UR on numerous occasions.

Orthodox Christianity is the issue , it is not of God as far has i am concerned .
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:41 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,879,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Put in whatever word that best defines the moment after death that you think unbelievers are given that Jesus refers to about rejecting him. Call it 2nd chance....frankly I don't care. The greater point is the opportunity to enter heaven beyond death for the unbeliever is not available.



You should do some research about traditional Christianity:
  1. Scripture proclaimed Jesus Christ IS the Savior of the whole world
  2. Jesus proclaimed."whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
  3. UR teaches whoever rejects the Son will not be held accountable for God's love remains on him
I think what June is asking--if I am reading her correctly--is perhaps best illustrated through a hypothetical scenario. I am painting with a broad brush here since this format precludes theological nuances, but I think this scenario might form the basis for an interesting discussion:

Characters

Bobby: He is an atheist who "rejects the son." He believes in neither Heaven nor Hell.
Sally: She is a UR believer who "accepts the son." She believes all (including Bobby, obviously) are destined for Heaven.
Jimmy: He is an ET'r who believes that Bobby is destined for Hell.

Definitions: The term "Accepts the Son" and "is Born Again" can be used interchangeably.

The Issue: Given all the above facts, what does Jimmy believe about Sally's eternal fate?

There are roughly four possible scenarios here as I see it:

(a) Jimmy believes Sally is automatically destined for Heaven because Sally "accepts the Son."

(b) Jimmy believes Sally has a chance at meriting Heaven, the same as he does, because they both "accept the Son."

(c) Jimmy believes that Sally's belief that Bobby is unequivocally destined for Heaven means that Sally, like Bobby, is destined for Hell--despite the fact that Sally, like Jimmy himself, "accepts the Son."

(d) Jimmy believes that Sally's belief that Bobby is unequivocally destined for Heaven negates Sally's claim that she "accepts the Son." Ergo Sally, just like Bobby, has actually "rejected the Son" and is thus destined for Hell.

Please discuss.

Last edited by DreamingSpires; 06-28-2010 at 03:50 PM..
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,194,133 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you read Paul's words, it sure does not sound like everyone will be saved. It sounds like there are those who will be in presence of God, and those who will be away from him being punished by everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:5-10 5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you
Absolutly
That Jesus and the Apostles were not on the same page is well .... bs.

Romans 2:8
"But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

It has been and will always be that those who reject Jesus, will in turn be rejected by Jesus. That person is not blessed and does not please God.




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Old 06-28-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Florida
63,274 posts, read 34,485,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It has been and will always be that those who reject Jesus, will in turn be rejected by Jesus. That person is not blessed and does not please God.
Yep. It is not complicated, and does not require creative interpreption.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:01 PM
 
Location: New England
32,345 posts, read 21,185,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you read Paul's words, it sure does not sound like everyone will be saved. It sounds like there are those who will be in presence of God, and those who will be away from him being punished by everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:5-10 5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you
And yet Jesus said He came to save and not to destroy , and when James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven , Jesus rebuked them and told them they knew not what spirit they were of .

I think you have the wrong idea about punishment .

Do you think if Jesus said you know not what spirit you are of to James and John for wanting to call fire down from heaven on those who rejected Jesus' message ,or do you think He had a change of heart about it soon after ?
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:11 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,194,133 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
I think what June is asking--if I am reading her correctly--is perhaps best illustrated through a hypothetical scenario. I am painting with a broad brush here since this format precludes theological nuances, but I think this scenario might form the basis for an interesting discussion:

Characters

Bobby: He is an atheist who "rejects the son." He believes in neither Heaven nor Hell.
Sally: She is a UR believer who "accepts the son." She believes all (including Bobby, obviously) are destined for Heaven.
Jimmy: He is an ET'r who believes that Bobby is destined for Hell.

Definitions: The term "Accepts the Son" and "is Born Again" can be used interchangeably.

The Issue: Given all the above facts, what does Jimmy believe about Sally's eternal fate?

There are roughly four possible scenarios here as I see it:

(a) Jimmy believes Sally is automatically destined for Heaven because Sally "accepts the Son."

(b) Jimmy believes Sally has a chance at meriting Heaven, the same as he does, because they both "accept the Son."

(c) Jimmy believes that Sally's belief that Bobby is unequivocally destined for Heaven means that Sally, like Bobby, is destined for Hell--despite the fact that Sally, like Jimmy himself, "accepts the Son."

(d) Jimmy believes that Sally's belief that Bobby is unequivocally destined for Heaven negates Sally's claim that she "accepts the Son." Ergo Sally, just like Bobby, has actually "rejected the Son" and is thus destined for Hell.

Please discuss.
Here is what Scriptures say:

Sally as a believer has eternal life. "A"
  • John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Sally however incorrectly concludes (for whatever reason) that despite rejecting Jesus, God UR's everybody. What damns is unbelief..not letter "C"
  • John 3:36
    "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:05 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,849,188 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here is what Scriptures say:



Sally as a believer has eternal life. "A"
  • John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Sally however incorrectly concludes (for whatever reason) that despite rejecting Jesus, God UR's everybody. What damns is unbelief..not letter "C"
  • John 3:36
    "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

But Sally did not incorrectly conclude anything, God UR's everyone by the means of his wrath so that all will believe.

What sally correctly concluded is that she doesn't have to believe Twins theology to be saved.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:19 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,879,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
But Sally did not incorrectly conclude anything, God UR's everyone by the means of his wrath so that all will believe.

What sally correctly concluded is that she doesn't have to believe Twins theology to be saved.
The issue isn't whether what Sally believes is correct or incorrect. That's irrelevant.

The question is about what JIMMY believes. Please read the scenario again and try to discuss the issue:

The Issue: Given all the above facts, what does Jimmy believe about Sally's eternal fate?
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:21 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 1,879,843 times
Reputation: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Here is what Scriptures say:




Sally as a believer has eternal life. "A"
  • John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Sally however incorrectly concludes (for whatever reason) that despite rejecting Jesus, God UR's everybody. What damns is unbelief..not letter "C"
  • John 3:36
    "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Is that what you believe, or is that what you think JIMMY believes?

Please answer the question as it was asked. It took a good bit of time to draft.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:23 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,849,188 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
The issue isn't whether what Sally believes is correct or incorrect. That's irrelevant.

The question is about what JIMMY believes. Please read the scenario again and try to discuss the issue:

The Issue: Given all the above facts, what does Jimmy believe about Sally's eternal fate?

It matters even less what Jimmy thinks or believes about anyones eternal fate, and that is my point.


People come up with scenarios and think it proves anything about someones eternal fate in the first place.
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