Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
There are three concepts running a muck here:
1.
To express the message (whether by explicitly or tongue in cheek) that the father's will doesn't require who looks to the Son and believes in him before death is to be opposed to the truth as Jesus specifically stated.John 6:40
If the patient rejects to follow the prescription..its the patient's fault and suffers the consequence. When the patient gets cured.. its to the credit of the doctor and reaps the benefits.
So it is with eternal life. When a person gets cured, God gets the credit and the person will reap the benefit. However if they reject the prescription, it's their fault and they will suffer the the consequence. John 3:36
2.
It takes the correct understanding and usage of the law for the gospel to be a "gospel message".
- I'm sure you're aware of this analogy that it's not the Dr's fault when the patient who has cancer only wants to hear "everything will be just fine".
- Nor is it the Dr's fault when people can't differentiate between "adult strength" and "children's strength" when it comes to the message of law and gospel.
Though both dosage strength is correct when understood and applied correctly, to confuse who gets what is not. Satan does whatever he can to get you to use the dosage amount incorrectly.
UR is the practice of using the "children's strength" message for the adult situations. Somebody who already is bothered by their sins don't need the same message that is intended for those who are not. For whatever reason..this is a foreign concept to many in your camp.
There are times when "children's strength" messages must be used. One such circumstance is when a topic is not addressed in scripture (i.e. infant deaths and how God handles this). We humans do not control the scale of mercy vs. the law..only God does this.
Where and when the scale is defined in scripture, humans can know what God's will is and what the consequence\benefits are.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
3.
Guilt......some here just can't understand\handle "why them" and not others. Because they can't figure this out, some admit to have nervous breakdown or others talk about the Bible in terms like a spiritual over active thyroid.
The fact is "all" is not "all inclusive". That is what's throwing the UR people into "mad cow disease". Jesus specifically said
John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
vs
Satan's propaganda through UR changes God's will.
"For my Father’s will is everyone shall have eternal life" |
There are so many holes in your argument(s) ...
You start out your argument on a completely false assumption that is based entirely on traditional orthodox teachings and which cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures. That is the Idea that one must believe before they die in order to be saved.
Then you continue to expound on that erroneous foundation with a bald faced lie that Jesus "specifically" said as much in the scriptures. When in fact it is nowhere mentioned even once that one must believe before they die in order to be saved, but instead they specifically teach the opposite, that "the gospel is preached to the dead so that even though they are judged as men in the flesh they will live in the spirit according to God".
After that you make some completely inane analogies using a Dr. as a comparison to God, as if a doctor had the power to accomplish anything he desire in the first place.
God can do whatever he wants, if he wants to heal someone of cancer, guess what? They will be healed.
And if God wants to change the heart of Saul and convert him into Paul, guess what? He will be changed and converted.
It is in Gods power to say everything will work out for the best in the end and then deliver. He can say it will all be alright and then accomplish just that if that is what he truly desires, and the bible specifically states that it is Gods will and desire that all should be saved.
You then go on to talk about the "child strength" vs. the "adult strength", and though i don't really follow what you are saying i infer that you are making reference to being spiritually mature v.s being spiritually immature. I don't know, I wont go there yet, as that part didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so maybe you could expound on it?
You quote certain verses, and then you apply the Sir. Spinsalot version of the traditional orthodox interpretation to them and say, "this is what God says", instead of taking the verses to mean what they say and only that.
John 3:36
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.
Yes, the above scripture is absolutely true, though what many Christians understand it to mean is not true.
And many Christians are misinformed as to the meaning of the above scripture largely due to their lack of understanding where the original language of the scriptures are concerned, in this case where the Greek is concerned.
So long as a person is rejecting Christ in their lives, then they will be experiencing the wrath of God. Now this was specifically spoken to the Jews, to whom Christ came as the promised messiah. And in 70 AD the wrath of God did come down on the nation of Israel at the time of the destruction of the temple.
However, ripping the above scripture out of context and then wrongly interpreting it as if Christ were speaking to all mankind instead of to the people of Israel, is not handling the scriptures honestly.
Certainly the idea that Gods wrath remains on people who reject him and live a life of debauchery can be generally applied to the words of Christ above, but that is not how they were intended.
Then questions must arise, "what about those who never heard of the message of the gospel, and therefore never rejected Christ but simply never believed because they didn't know any better?" ... Or, "what about someone who rejects Christ all their lives, but then earnestly asks for forgiveness on their death beds?" ...
How many times must one reject Christ in their lives before they are ultimately doomed?
And why do you suppose that death is more powerful than the work of Christ on the cross, so that once someone dies then that person can no longer receive the benefit of his work thereafter?
If the pain of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law, then the law of sin and death is greater than the law of liberty, and the power of the law of sin and death is greater than the power of the work of Christ on the cross which was for the purpose of fulfilling the law of sin and death and to die for sin in order to overcome death for all people who are in bondage to the power of sin and death. He came to set the captives free, right? ...
I could continue down this road of loopholes in you arguments for ever i'm sure, but I digress ...
Finally, in light of the audience relevance and context of the scriptures which you quoted above, we see that indeed those who look to the son shall have the life of the age(s), and will be raised. But there is also a resurrection unto judgment, as much as their is a resurrection of life. The wicked and unbelieving will be resurrected as well ... At which time they shall be judged, and the effects of that judgment in their lives will cause them to have a change of hear and to be spiritually quickened so that they will acknowledge that Christ is lord and shall worship him to the glory of the father.
Of course i don't imagine you read much of what any of us ever write, as you have proven time and again that you are either truly ignorant of what Christian Biblical Universalism teaches, or you simply refuse to acknowledge what it teaches because you cannot otherwise make answers for it.
Nevertheless, maybe some others may find my words to be of some use, even if you do not ...
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