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You insist on giving freewill a meaning it doesn't have. Freewill means that you can make a choice to do one thing or another. That's all it means.
With regard to salvation, it means that a person is free to accept or reject Christ as Savior. It's that simple.
But the Carnal man will never make the choice to choose God. For the carnal man is unable to. It is impossible for the carnal man. He must be given belief. We don't manufacture belief. It must be given to us. The disciples knew this which is why they ask Jesus to increase their Faith. They knew that Faith came from the Lord.
But the Carnal man will never make the choice to choose God. For the carnal man is unable to. It is impossible for the carnal man. He must be given belief. We don't manufacture belief. It must be given to us. The disciples knew this which is why they ask Jesus to increase their Faith. They knew that Faith came from the Lord.
No, the disciples did not understand the issue. For the most part, the deciples were a bunch of dumb bunnies who despite having spent three years with the Lord, never did really learn much of anything. Not until after Jesus had been resurrected. They ignorantly asked Jesus to increase their faith (Luke 17:5). Jesus' reply to their request was simply to what they could do if they had faith like a mustard seed. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words, faith comes as a result of gaining knowledge about the one in whom you are placing your trust. When you know something about a person, you come to realize that you can trust that person, and so you place your faith in them. It is no different with regard to the gospel message concerning Jesus Christ. By means of the gospel information you learn something about Christ and decide that you can trust Him to provide salvation for you. So you place your faith in Him. The faith comes from you. The information on which you make your decision to trust in Christ is what comes from God.
Every unbeliever is carnal at the point of gospel hearing. Some make the choice to choose God, and many do not. Read carefully post #199 which I have copied below.
Saving faith comes from the one who hears the gospel. It is not given to him by God. What comes from God is information concerning the issue in salvation, and as a result of evaluating the issue in salvation by means of the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit (see below) the hearer of the gospel makes a decision to receive Christ or to reject Him.
This is from post #199
Faith preceeds regeneration and the Bible clearly states that.
Gal 3:2'This is the only thing I want to find out from you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith. Hearing the gospel message resulted in faith which resulted in receiving the Spirit. Simple and easy to understand.
Here. Try this one.
Ephesians 1:13'In Him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise... First you listen to the gospel message, as a result you believe and are then sealed in Christ.
When the gospel message is heard by the unbeliever the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace, convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, and of rightousness, and of judgment.(John 16:8-11)
The hearer of the gospel can then say 'yes' or 'no' to the gospel message.
For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph 2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph 2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
That actually is more commentary than Greek exposition, but he notes that “that” (or “this”) is neuter, not feminine, and so according to him would refer to the act of being saved, not to faith or grace, that is not of ourselves. Yet, we know that grace is not of ourselves, either. The question then is “faith” also not of ourselves?
Adam Clark’s Commentary:
But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This(τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” [emphasis mine SM] But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.
[end quote]
Based on my knowledge of Greek, I’d say “this” (touto) corresponds to the giving of salvation. “Gift” (doron) of verse 8 is nominative singular neuter, just like the word “this” (touto). Both “grace” and “faith” are genitive feminine, and “Jesus” is dative masculine, and “saved” is actually “ones having been saved” and is a perfect participial verb. The word “gift,” which follows in the verse, would fit except that it follows in the sentence after the word “this,” therefore “this” (touto) would refer to something antecedent (before in the sentence). But, “gift” is neuter singular just like “this.” So, that best I can figure by the rules of Greek as I have been taught, is “this” refers to the gift of salvation. Salvation really is a gift. The means of it are grace and faith.
I have concluded elsewhere that salvation by “faith” may not refer to our faith in certain texts but rather Christ’s faith and/or the faith itself, Christianity, the body of the church as a whole, corporately. I have a book called “Cruciformity” by Michael J. Gorman that explores from the text that “faith” is “of Christ” not “in Christ.” Also Richard Hayes' doctoral thesis is on "The Faith Of Christ". Interesting study for sure, and I believe all will benefit from it. Here’s one clear cut example of this, and I’m using the most literal English version I have, Young’s Literal, though the NET and ISV also translate it right, most do not:
Romans 3:21-25 YLTAnd now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, (22) and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference, (23) for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God-- (24) being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
Clearly Paul teaches that righteousness comes to us by Christ’s faith, not ours. Is our faith part of it? It would seem so, based on verse 25 where Paul does say “through faith in his blood,” which would then help us to extract from the text that the meaning Paul was after was "our faith in His faithfulness." Blessings to you all. This is for sure a very deep study that has indeed parted the church for far too long.
the disciples were a bunch of dumb bunnies who despite having spent three years with the Lord, never did really learn much of anything.
LOL
Quote:
In other words, faith comes as a result of gaining knowledge about the one in whom you are placing your trust. When you know something about a person, you come to realize that you can trust that person, and so you place your faith in them.
A five year old would understand that....it couldn't be any plainer.
No. It is the salvation which is the gift of God. Not the faith. Refer to post #203.
No, Everything in that verse is a gift. Mike, I'm not going to go back and hunt down your post#. Interesting comment from Gill's commentary (in the Public Domain) on this verse:
----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:
"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''
His reply was:
"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''
Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)
For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph 2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph 2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
That actually is more commentary than Greek exposition, but he notes that “that” (or “this”) is neuter, not feminine, and so according to him would refer to the act of being saved, not to faith or grace, that is not of ourselves. Yet, we know that grace is not of ourselves, either. The question then is “faith” also not of ourselves?
Adam Clark’s Commentary:
But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This(τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” [emphasis mine SM] But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.
[end quote]
Based on my knowledge of Greek, I’d say “this” (touto) corresponds to the giving of salvation. “Gift” (doron) of verse 8 is nominative singular neuter, just like the word “this” (touto). Both “grace” and “faith” are genitive feminine, and “Jesus” is dative masculine, and “saved” is actually “ones having been saved” and is a perfect participial verb. The word “gift,” which follows in the verse, would fit except that it follows in the sentence after the word “this,” therefore “this” (touto) would refer to something antecedent (before in the sentence). But, “gift” is neuter singular just like “this.” So, that best I can figure by the rules of Greek as I have been taught, is “this” refers to the gift of salvation. Salvation really is a gift. The means of it are grace and faith.
I have concluded elsewhere that salvation by “faith” may not refer to our faith in certain texts but rather Christ’s faith and/or the faith itself, Christianity, the body of the church as a whole, corporately. I have a book called “Cruciformity” by Michael J. Gorman that explores from the text that “faith” is “of Christ” not “in Christ.” Also Richard Hayes' doctoral thesis is on "The Faith Of Christ". Interesting study for sure, and I believe all will benefit from it. Here’s one clear cut example of this, and I’m using the most literal English version I have, Young’s Literal, though the NET and ISV also translate it right, most do not:
Romans 3:21-25 YLTAnd now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, (22) and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference, (23) for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God-- (24) being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God--
Clearly Paul teaches that righteousness comes to us by Christ’s faith, not ours. Is our faith part of it? It would seem so, based on verse 25 where Paul does say “through faith in his blood,” which would then help us to extract from the text that the meaning Paul was after was "our faith in His faithfulness." Blessings to you all. This is for sure a very deep study that has indeed parted the church for far too long.
I don't agree with Adam Clarke's commentary. However, he contradicts both of you and Mike with some of this statements here such as:
You do realize that Adam Clarke in his commentary said that Faith is a Gift?
He also says:
"Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe."
So if God never gives someone the grace or power to believe then it would mean they never had a chance to believe.
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