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Sorry to bring this comment up again but this issue is a soupbox issue for me.
Worth Eternal Torture? Only if God has the Justice logic of Vlad the Impaler..or infinitely crazier. Did you read that post and really analyze the logic? Let's try it again more thoroughly:
1. God Sets up the universe creating all the rules and laws, one of which is that a single sin = Eternal Torture + all offspring automatically being born into sin
2. God then Creates the world and Humans that are incapable of truly avoiding sin, cannot comprehend eternity, and Gods knows they will fail.
3. He then Creates a method for them to save themselves that he knows less than 10% of every one who will ever live will ever be lucky enough to discover either because of where they were born or because they just happened to choose it amongst all the worlds religions and belief systems.
Under this system which assumes you believe in original sin, eternal torture, and at least some foreknowledge capability of God, any way you try to look at this ET traditionalist model, it still all goes to God and his design which using this model appears to be extremely if not infinitely sadistic be any known standard of logic or Justice that has ever been conceived.
So far, I've posted this many times here and no ET believer has found any good response besides "don't question God!" or "God logic is better than ours!" Those might be ok arguments for some like "why did God kill all those people in the old testament" But for something that appears to be an infinite level of madness, one would have to be a little mad themselves to blindly accept after considering the big picture at this level without a far superior argument...which most Traditionalist ETers never really have considered this so I'm not calling all ETers crazy .
I guess your underlining question deals with the dilemma of determinism. How can someone be responsible and punished for something they are not ultimately responsible for? This dilemma is not exclusive to theists so I would like to hear your thoughts.
Reformed Christian theology has come down on the "first" and "second" causes of all things. The first being God, the second being man. God ordains and causes all things, but man's choices and will are his to make and are not coerced, otherwise it would not be a will.
It is useless for ETers to quote from interpretively translated Bibles.
URs don't recognize those Bibles as being the word of God.
It's useless for you to continually bring up the Knoch's, Barclay's, Abbott's, Hough's of this world.
Of course UR's wouldn't recognize those Bibles for a simple reason, UR's do not \ will not recognize the full truth.
Those who promote UR and lead others away from the truth will be damned because it is the promotion of a false gospel .... so says God.
If you believe the Sodomites will undergo never-ending torment, how do you understand this verse?
Matthew 11:24
But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
That those in Capernaum will be punished more severely in hell than those people of Sodom.
As Jesus said:
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."
The people of Capernaum knew \ physically saw the master and did not get ready or does not do what the master wants. They will get beaten with many blows
The people of Sodom does not know and did things deserving punishment. They will be beaten with few blows.
I can honestly say that I never disciplined my children for any other reason than their good. Only a mind that is alienated from God would think causing pain by torment and torment that is never ending is just.
It's useless for you to continually bring up the Knoch's, Barclay's, Abbott's, Hough's of this world.
Of course UR's wouldn't recognize those Bibles for a simple reason, UR's do not \ will not recognize the full truth.
Those who promote UR and lead others away from the truth will be damned because it is the promotion of a false gospel .... so says God.
Etymology of the Word "Damn"
The words "damn" and "Hell" are among favorite words spoken by theologians of the "hell-fire" type.
Let us look into the etymology of this word "damn." We may find some interesting surprises. Etymology of the Word "Damn"
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.
My attitude towards the frequent threats by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.
An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."
In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:
"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.
The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.
Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.
So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.
We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart."
(End quote)
A.E. Knoch
I wish you could understand how incredible that sounds.
NIV
if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathema let him be!
as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathema let him be!
anathema: (Webster dictionary)
1
a: one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority
b: someone or something intensely disliked or loathed —usually used as a predicate nominative <this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen — S. J. Gould>
2 a: a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication
b: the denunciation of something as accursed
c: a vigorous denunciation : curse
And what does Jesus say:
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
UR is the false gospel hope to those on the left of Jesus .... those which Jesus said are "dogs" that are on the outside who will never be forgiven.
That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard. (vomit)
That's unfortunate that you have that reaction to what God said but I've come to expect that.
John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
God spoke Galations 1:5-6, Matthew 25:30-45, John 3:36 ... Jesus doesn't say "condemn until they are UR".
That is the false gospel hope for those on the left of Jesus, and for the person to trust in being UR or deceives people into that hope will be " anathema".
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