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Old 10-05-2013, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
You mean, you don't see the WORD "rapture" in the Bible, I think.... I need to know specifically what scripture you are refering to with that parable of the husbandman. I believe you are referencing Matthew 18 or 24 or 25

Scripture references? Start with those doctrines of the resurrection of the righteous dead and of the transformation of those left alive until the second coming. Consider Jesus ascension into heaven. Consider 1 Corinthians 15. The parousia is a central doctrine of both the Western and Eastern orthodoxy, the Catholic Church, evangelicals, etc. Ancient doctrines discussed by 1st century fathers. Mark 12:27 - "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I'm not a pre-tribber, a dispensationalist or a fan of the Left Behind mythology. So, you won't see any arguments from me that you would get from a dispensationalist pre-tribber or a novice theologian. As I said before, the rapture has nothing to do with flying to the air, or to heaven, or the location of our eternal state of being. This is the fundamental aspect of the argument that eludes consideration from many pundits. The purpose of the rapture is to transform living believers into their eternal glorified state at the time of the second coming. When the righteous dead are raised "incorruptible". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And this is both a spiritual truth and a literal truth. Thus, the living believer will put on that which is incorruptible.

You ask me if I believe that we will rule on Earth. I ask you, do you believe that dead believers will be resurrected into the same old mortal bodies? Will those believers who are alive at the second coming just stay imperfect as they presently are? This is what the rapture is about. It's not about flying away into the sky.

I've read the NT over 300 times in 25 years. I have no problem at all seeing a doctrine of the transformation of the believers and the righteous dead. The resurrection is a central tenet of the Christian faith.
Zepplin, good points. I don't mean it in a patronizing way. I like guys who argue dear points clearly without literally speaking from a high horse.

Now unto business. When I read you I come out with the understanding that you confuse resurrection with rapture. I also think that you also have not clearly understood the scripture of when our mortal bodies will change. Let me handle resurrection, which is divided into 2, normal and physical.

Quote:
The purpose of the rapture is to transform living believers into their eternal glorified state at the time of the second coming. When the righteous dead are raised "incorruptible". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. And this is both a spiritual truth and a literal truth. Thus, the living believer will put on that which is incorruptible.
There are two ways you get transformed - by the Holy Spirit living inside you. Holy Spirit living inside of us as believers is also meant to transform us Romans 8:

Quote:
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
:



The second is at death. Every human being resurrects at death. this is regular resurrection. When resurrection happens it is as described below

1Corn 15:
Quote:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in in-corruption: 43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Resurrection however does not mean that all spirits are in the heavens. Some can be detained in all sorts of places - the Deep, Seas, Hades, hell, etc. To illustrate this point have a look at Rev 20

Quote:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
The spirit of the humans that were victims of the flood, were detained in the Hades. When Christ died, he resurrected to the Hades, to free them and preach to them. Resurrection happens immediately you die. It is a separation of the flesh from the spirit. It also is a continuum of life, because life itself is the spirit, as the flesh is nothing- only useful for the mundane world.

Therefore, the righteous dead raised incorruptible is the resurrection of his spirit from his body. Man is made up of water, blood and Spirit. The Spirit is the place where we resemble God. It does not die. It can be in eternal punishment, but does not die. So resurrection happens daily as long as people die daily- and it is not rapture. Bear in mind also that after resurrection God may decide to send the spirit back on earth and it enters the womb of a woman and becomes a new child, with a new body. It is his prerogative what he does with any spirit. The cycle operating now is :

Resurrection, judgment incarnation, birth
Life---- Death -----------------------Spirit -------------------- Life
----Angel of Death---Christ, God, Holy Spirit--------------------

The decision to reincarnate back to the world is taken by Christ, after the first judgement. But we need to understand that just before death, the angel of death gather round a human to receive him. After death, the spirit resurrects, then judgement is given over the spirits sojourn on earth, leading to a decision to reincarnate and be born into a family or not. There is a veil between the spiritual and the physical world. Currently we do not know the spirit of people as that angel prevents us from knowing the spirit.

Quote:
5 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds
Dead believers do not necessarily resurrect into the same mortal bodies when they come back to the world, as seen from above. They take on other bodies, when they reincarnate back to the earth. In the heavens they are with their spiritual or angelic bodies.

The only time that physical resurrection will happen is at the very end when the angel of death is now destroyed. Note that Christ will already be on earth when the events unfold. That is why it is stated that he will work until he brings all powers under him, the last being death itself, before he hands over the kingdom back to God. At that time the cycle of death is stopped, and our bodies die for the last time for three days (twinkle of an eye) and the righteous are raised and they assume the same glorious body that Christ assumed after his physical resurrection. At that point, humans will live like angels on earth - no lust for heavy food, no sex, no death, no birth as we know it, no police, no violence, no visas, no accidents, one love, one ruler-ship, one King, one government. In short, the perfect garden of Eden. We are all working to restore the earth back to its glory. The heaven has been fixed, the earth is the one that needs fixing. That is the second mission of Christ. To cage a strong man, you come to his house and tie him up. Mankind will experience things that will cause them to fear and to recognize the Being in our Midst. these things come in stages or in seals as revealed to John the Divine. All will recognize the ruler-ship of the returned Christ, who had hitherto stayed like a thief unrecognized. If folks need to leave (ie today's "death") the world, they just disappear. You will know all the patriach's because they have also reincarnated back.

1Cor 15

Quote:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in-corruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on in-corruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on in-corruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice that this end time event did not mention rapture to anywhere? All events will manifest on the earth! Alleluyah!
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
There are two ways you get transformed - by the Holy Spirit living inside you. Holy Spirit living inside of us as believers is also meant to transform us Romans 8:
The second is at death. Every human being resurrects at death. this is regular resurrection. When resurrection happens it is as described below
1Corn 15:
Resurrection however does not mean that all spirits are in the heavens. Some can be detained in all sorts of places - the Deep, Seas, Hades, hell, etc. To illustrate this point have a look at Rev 20Notice that this end time event did not mention rapture to anywhere? All events will manifest on the earth! Alleluyah!
We have no real disagreement between us on the issue I think.

Attempting to delineate the first resurrection as a separate event from "the rapture" is the Dispensationalist pre-tribber error. They are not separate events. They are in fact the same event. But what confuses critics of pretribbery is that the pretribber misdirects purpose and timing and adds in too many non-existant duplicate events to prop up a faulty doctrine.

What pre tribbers are actually selling is the notion that there is AT LEAST two comings of Jesus and at least two First Resurrections spread out over a long period of time. They sell a lot of other bad doctrines, but these two are the most relevant to our discussion.

My belief strictly from scripture is pretty analogous to the Orthodox belief of both the Eastern and Western traditions. And "coincidentally" analogous, I will add, since I was not raised in church, grew up as a non-religious agnostic and converted to Christianity at the age of 27. Prior to my conversion, I had absolutely no conception or training in eschatology. My level of understanding was basically... I didn't know the difference between Christ and his apostles.
My conversion was very much a Damascus road conversion. I read the NT for the first time over one weekend. My own reading from the very first matches the orthodoxy on eschatology.

I am unalterably convinced that the resurrection of the dead has to be a literal event, as described in 1 Cor 15. At the time of the second coming, the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and those believers that remain alive will be transformed instantly into incorruptible eternal bodies. In the same manner that Christ was transfigured at his ascension. The purpose of the rapture is NOT to escape from the Antichrist, or the seven year period of intense persecution outlined in the NT. The purpose of the rapture is to provide the eternal body to those who will enter into the eternal state of being.

Believers who have died or will die prior to the second coming are in disembodied spirit in the presence of Christ in heaven. And this is because they WERE transformed in life to be spiritually alive and heirs of the promise. They will receive actual tangible eternal bodies at the first resurrection during the second coming. Believe who are alive at that time will never taste death in the temporal sense, but will be "changed in the twinkling of an eye". And all will be instantly transported to join Christ at his return. Basically. The Holy Spirit does transform us in life of course, enabling us to be with Christ in spirit both now and in death. But that is not the entire transformation. The resurrection must be literal, or it is meaningless.

The wicked dead die and they sleep in the ground, unconscious and "annihalated" until the end of the millennial reign. They too will be resurrected literally at the Great White Throne judgement and face judgement in revived mortal bodies. And this is what the Bible indicates. My own belief is that anyone who reads the scripture with the mind of understanding will reach this conclusion - eventually, if not immediately.

1 Corinthians 15:51 describes the event commonly called "the rapture".

Last edited by Led Zeppelin; 10-05-2013 at 07:08 PM..
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Old 10-06-2013, 02:28 AM
 
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Zepplin, I see your point and I agree we are close, very close.

As for the pretibbers, the problem with their doctrine is they confuse the final ressurection on earth as the rapture. Whereas the rapture is an event that puts you in one spiritual accord with Christ and it takes place as soon as a believer dies. His spirit is caught up to God. In that sense rapture is ressurection and this happens regularly.

The rapture described in Thes 4, is in many respects similar to Cor 15 and Paul implied a physical change of our bodies and an end to death as we know it. The entire thing happens in the world. The world is what has been needing fixing for 6000yrs after Adam. IT MAKES Sense for the creator to perfect his work. The concept of taking us away to be with him in heaven is not consistent with his mission and so any discerning Xtian must know that the spirit of error is let loose upon the world, to teach fables and false doctrines
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Old 10-06-2013, 02:52 AM
 
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On another note, the final resurrection does not occur at his coming. Christ will already be in the world working to put down all principalities and powers. The last to be conquered is death and the manner that it will be conquered is described graphically in Cor 15. Note that his coming is like a thief in the night, so the change of our mortal bodies occurs much later.

If you study Luke 17 and 18, Christ made it clear that in his coming the world would not have faith in him and he would suffer many things and be rejected! Christ the same yesterday and forever. As he was rejected by the scribes and the religious leaders of those days, so has it happened in this end time. On that note, let us be reminded that our church will not save us. Matter of fact the only church He recognizes is our bodies-his temple! Keep it pure and you are good to go
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:11 AM
 
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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, (16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

The snatching away is not an invention of man. The problem however is that "The Left Behind" camp take certain verses from the gospels and improperly use them as if they are instructing the Jews on a "rapture."

For instance, take the verses:

Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.

The Left Behind rapture camp believes the two above verses are talking about the rapture. They aren't about it at all.
Jesus will come back to Israel with His fiery messengers and will cull out of Israel all the bad Israelites:

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers,
and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

So one of the two in the field will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
One of the two at the millstone will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:10 PM
 
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1st Corinthians 15:51 is Not about rapture, but about resurrection from death's sleep. - John 11 vs 11-14

Flesh [ physical ] according to 1st Cor. 15 v 50 can Not inherit the kingdom.

Jesus did not receive his heavenly reward until after he was resurrected in a spirit body and ascended to heaven. - Hebrews 9 v 24

Jesus ' brothers ' who die which are firstfruits [ 1st Cor. 15 vs 20,23 ] are part of a first or earlier resurrection to heaven -Rev. 20 v 6
Their rank or order is that they will be resurrected sooner than the rest of earth's population.- Rev. 5 vs 9,10

The majority of mankind are Not considered as Jesus spiritual ' brothers ' and they can have a future resurrection back to life on earth during Jesus 1000-year kingdom reign over earth. - Acts 24 v 15

The living ' sheep ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 are alive on earth at the coming ' time of separation ' before Jesus' millennial reign over earth.
Those humble ' sheep ' can remain alive and keep right on living right into the start of Jesus millennium-long day of reigning over earth.
Whereas Jesus ' brothers ' of verse 40 will be part of the heavenly resurrection as holy ones [saints ] reigning in heaven with Christ for a 1000 years over earthy subjects of God's kingdom.- Daniel 7 vs 18,22,27; Psalm 72 vs 8,12-14
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, (16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

The snatching away is not an invention of man. The problem however is that "The Left Behind" camp take certain verses from the gospels and improperly use them as if they are instructing the Jews on a "rapture."

For instance, take the verses:

Mat 24:40 Then two shall be in the field; one is taken along and one left:
Mat 24:41 two grinding at the millstone; one is taken along and one left.

The Left Behind rapture camp believes the two above verses are talking about the rapture. They aren't about it at all.
Jesus will come back to Israel with His fiery messengers and will cull out of Israel all the bad Israelites:

Mat 13:41 The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers,
and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

So one of the two in the field will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
One of the two at the millstone will be taken out of Israel and cast out.
if you take it literally, then you miss the point. Will you be with Lord always in the clouds? Or in the air? Where is the air? Is the air = the clouds?. The use of the term snatched away conveys a carnal meaning to a spiritual write up.

God has created only one channel for a human to enter the earth - the womb of a woman for now. Any other way, that being is no more human but an angel. But an angel cannot rule over man, so Christ 2nd coming must be as his brethren in all respects and must be born the way you and I are, hence we see in Rev 12:5.

Isreal refers to the whole world, not the state Israel. If you recollect the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Christ categorically stated that the physical location will not be among the Jews. In Revelation he talked about a New Jerusalem.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:42 AM
 
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I can only hope that there is a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't want to be here during the Great Tribulation!!
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
I can only hope that there is a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't want to be here during the Great Tribulation!!
I don't think anyone wants to be here during the coming great tribulation, but we are forewarned so we can be forearmed.

Forearmed with the information from Revelation 7 v 14 that the ' great crowd ' [ of sheep-like ones Matthew 25 vs 31,32 ] will ' come out ' of the great tribulation alive because they say at Rev. 7 v 10 ' Salvation ' to our God and the Lamb.
They are rescued, delivered, saved alive through that great tribulation.

There can be No rapture at any time because 'flesh' [physical] can Not inherit the kingdom according to 1st Cor. 15 v 50.

But we can be hid from harm's way [ Isaiah 26 v 20 ]

Jesus said at Matthew 24 v 37 as in the days of Noah. Noah was Not raptured but kept safe.

The tribulation plague safely passed over those faithful ancient Israelites before they left Egypt for the Promised Land.

We are nearing the threshold of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, and before the start of Jesus' reign the words from Jesus' mouth will do away with the wicked ones on earth.- Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15.

Then, the whole earth will be the paradisaic 'Promised Land' [ Psalm 37 vs 11,29 ] flowing with milk and honey.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Israel refers to the whole world, not the state Israel. If you recollect the parable of the wicked husbandmen, Christ categorically stated that the physical location will not be among the Jews. In Revelation he talked about a New Jerusalem.
Before Christ, God used the ancient nation of Israel, but since Pentecost God set up, so to speak, as spiritual nation.
Galatians 6 v 16 does Not refer to the whole world, but to the spiritual 'Israel of God'.
A spiritual nation that does not have borders or boundaries on any map.
Spiritual because as Romans 2 vs 28,29; 9 v 6 mentions a Jew Not by flesh.
Jerusalem ' above ' is now mother. - Gal. 4 v 26.
The ' spiritual nation ' of the 'Israel of God' is Not by fleshly descent but is a holy nation - 1st Peter 2 v 9,5
That spiritual nation is ruled over by God's kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus as king of God's thousand-year kingdom over all of earth, or over earthly subjects of God's kingdom. - Psalm 72 vs 8,12-14.
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