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wrong ........... not all do
Correct understanding of scriptures teaches
1.) Salvation is 100% God's doing, thus God takes the credit for spiritual rebirth
2.) unbelief is 100% the unbelievers fault, thus are damned for choosing for rejecting the truth
Those who " But it is up to you to choose God" is making coming to faith a work or in other words a "gift of man" rather than a "gift from God".
Let's ask a simple question to you:
Does God need me to Choose Him in order to save me?
wrong ........... not all do
Correct understanding of scriptures teaches
1.) Salvation is 100% God's doing, thus God takes the credit for spiritual rebirth
2.) unbelief is 100% the unbelievers fault, thus are damned for choosing for rejecting the truth
Those who " But it is up to you to choose God" is making coming to faith a work or in other words a "gift of man" rather than a "gift from God".
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Let's ask a simple question to you:
Does God need me to Choose Him in order to save me?
You'll need to define exactly what is meant by God "needs" and what you believe (not what the phantom boogey man scare tactics that "fundamentalist" are accused of perpetrating) that an individual is saved from.
Why do you think this is the case? Affirmation? Confrontation? Verification? I can't put my finger on the reason for this recurring theme.
I really don't know... perhaps Spiritual blindness in that area or maybe just wishful thinking (?) They also seem to want to 'label' everyone who doesn't believe in UR as an "ET'r" ... as if to suggest that the only way hell could exist is for God Himself to favor Eternal Torment.
IMO, the UR philosophy is a major heresy of our time, since it promotes ignoring a huge amount of scripture that says otherwise. (It's not just a doctrinal position, but, an overt effort to encourage others to ignore scriptural warnings, under the auspices of "a loving God who would never ... (fill in the blank)). That's been the lie of Satan from the beginning: "Surely, you will not die."
By the same token, I believe there are a lot of sincere, people who genuinely believe in UR and believe that a lot of the "all" and "temporary eternity" scriptures trump all Bible references to hell or condemnation. --- Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
You'll need to define exactly what is meant by God "needs" and what you believe (not what the phantom boogey man scare tactics that "fundamentalist" are accused of perpetrating) that an individual is saved from.
Do you ever just answer the questions put to you, Twin. It was a simple question: Does he have to choose God to be saved or not?
Can God save someone against his will? We are created in the image of God, that means we have the same free will as God has. No one can force God to do something against His will. To want to go to Heaven is a decision of any human being, God will not and cannot kidnap anyone into heaven, because love demands our agreement. No one can marry one without agreement. God is the bridegroom. who takes only a bride that loves Him. Mat 13 Jesus speaks of a harvest, the good will be gathered into the kingdom, the bad are burned. The ones in the middle go into the Millennium, they have still a chance, but they are last, not first.
When I was a young believer I asked God a question, if He could save my work college, who was an Atheist. Strange things happened. He came to me and said,that he did not want to go to Heaven. I asked him why? He said there would be no sex. This was his god. God seemed to give him visions, so he knew more about Heaven than I knew than. He called this visions hallucinations and went to a Psychiatrist and used it to go even into pension.
It is right that the unbeliever has a carnal mind and there is an enemy who does not want anyone to be saved. That is the reason why only few are saved. The human being is religious, longing for the lost paradise. Every one wants to be good, Humanism is a form of glorifying man without God. The deceiver, the Devil has created all kinds of lies to deceive the human race. His greatest enemies are Christians, because they have power and authority to destroy his works. So he deceives them and makes them powerless. Many he can even convince of his lies, so he gets their souls. We are in a war and need the whole armor of God, that we may stand. We have to love each other that is right, but for our own salvation we have to love also truth. God has given us His word and through Jesus His Holy Spirit, who will lead us in all truth. The one that asks will get an answer, the one that seeks will find, the one that knocks Jesus will come in and give Him a better mind than the carnal one. They that say they see and know it better than what the word of God says are like the Pharisees and are blind. May God have mercy.
Can God save someone against his will? We are created in the image of God, that means we have the same free will as God has. No one can force God to do something against His will. To want to go to Heaven is a decision of any human being, God will not and cannot kidnap anyone into heaven, because love demands our agreement. No one can marry one without agreement. God is the bridegroom. who takes only a bride that loves Him. Mat 13 Jesus speaks of a harvest, the good will be gathered into the kingdom, the bad are burned. The ones in the middle go into the Millennium, they have still a chance, but they are last, not first.
When I was a young believer I asked God a question, if He could save my work college, who was an Atheist. Strange things happened. He came to me and said,that he did not want to go to Heaven. I asked him why? He said there would be no sex. This was his god. God seemed to give him visions, so he knew more about Heaven than I knew than. He called this visions hallucinations and went to a Psychiatrist and used it to go even into pension.
It is right that the unbeliever has a carnal mind and there is an enemy who does not want anyone to be saved. That is the reason why only few are saved. The human being is religious, longing for the lost paradise. Every one wants to be good, Humanism is a form of glorifying man without God. The deceiver, the Devil has created all kinds of lies to deceive the human race. His greatest enemies are Christians, because they have power and authority to destroy his works. So he deceives them and makes them powerless. Many he can even convince of his lies, so he gets their souls. We are in a war and need the whole armor of God, that we may stand. We have to love each other that is right, but for our own salvation we have to love also truth. God has given us His word and through Jesus His Holy Spirit, who will lead us in all truth. The one that asks will get an answer, the one that seeks will find, the one that knocks Jesus will come in and give Him a better mind than the carnal one. They that say they see and know it better than what the word of God says are like the Pharisees and are blind. May God have mercy.
But my friend,God can accomplish his will without force,and I wouldn't take issue if he did if it meant apprehending folk from the eternal hell many of you believe in. You believing was not through choice no matter how much you believe it, God himself was persuading you and convincing you of his reality so much so, that your desire changed and put you in a place that you had to believe.
The stumbling block for many of you is you think you have it all worked out what happens beyond the grave, and that man's measly few years in this life of vanity dead in sin and iniquity is his only chance of being saved from the effect of sin and suffering from under the condemnation of it.
It's also priceless really, the way Christians talk about faith, when Jesus said when the son of man comes shall he find faith, he is not talking about those who are not Christian in the eyes of Christians here, but them that supposedly think they are. So if you want to get your measuring stick out to find who has got faith and who hasn't, maybe its time for God to do the same, and I believe most of us would be found wanting if he did so. You can holler as much as you want the Christian cliches of what you believe in, but that is not faith and God is not bringing us to faith so that we go to heaven, but that we live by it by.........faith and access his grace so that he's an ever present help in time in need for yourself and all who are in your world.
Can God save someone against his will? We are created in the image of God, that means we have the same free will as God has. No one can force God to do something against His will. To want to go to Heaven is a decision of any human being, God will not and cannot kidnap anyone into heaven, because love demands our agreement. No one can marry one without agreement. God is the bridegroom. who takes only a bride that loves Him. Mat 13 Jesus speaks of a harvest, the good will be gathered into the kingdom, the bad are burned. The ones in the middle go into the Millennium, they have still a chance, but they are last, not first.
When I was a young believer I asked God a question, if He could save my work college, who was an Atheist. Strange things happened. He came to me and said,that he did not want to go to Heaven. I asked him why? He said there would be no sex. This was his god. God seemed to give him visions, so he knew more about Heaven than I knew than. He called this visions hallucinations and went to a Psychiatrist and used it to go even into pension.
It is right that the unbeliever has a carnal mind and there is an enemy who does not want anyone to be saved. That is the reason why only few are saved. The human being is religious, longing for the lost paradise. Every one wants to be good, Humanism is a form of glorifying man without God. The deceiver, the Devil has created all kinds of lies to deceive the human race. His greatest enemies are Christians, because they have power and authority to destroy his works. So he deceives them and makes them powerless. Many he can even convince of his lies, so he gets their souls. We are in a war and need the whole armor of God, that we may stand. We have to love each other that is right, but for our own salvation we have to love also truth. God has given us His word and through Jesus His Holy Spirit, who will lead us in all truth. The one that asks will get an answer, the one that seeks will find, the one that knocks Jesus will come in and give Him a better mind than the carnal one. They that say they see and know it better than what the word of God says are like the Pharisees and are blind. May God have mercy.
But my friend,God can accomplish his will without force,and I wouldn't take issue if he did if it meant apprehending folk from the eternal hell many of you believe in. You believing was not through choice no matter how much you believe it, God himself was persuading you and convincing you of his reality so much so, that your desire changed and put you in a place that you had to believe.
The stumbling block for many of you is you think you have it all worked out what happens beyond the grave, and that man's measly few years in this life of vanity dead in sin and iniquity is his only chance of being saved from the effect of sin and suffering from under the condemnation of it.
It's also priceless really, the way Christians talk about faith, when Jesus said when the son of man comes shall he find faith, he is not talking about those who are not Christian in the eyes of Christians here, but them that supposedly think they are. So if you want to get your measuring stick out to find who has got faith and who hasn't, maybe its time for God to do the same, and I believe most of us would be found wanting if he did so. You can holler as much as you want the Christian cliches of what you believe in, but that is not faith and God is not bringing us to faith so that we go to heaven, but that we live by it by.........faith and access his grace so that he's an ever present help in time in need for yourself and all who are in your world.
The topic is always brought up by people like you. When I see a false teaching about any topic, I will make an attempt to correct it.
Christ has already given me peace, but thanks for offering it to me again.
This is rich comming from you Fin. Awhile ago I started a thread called "in defence of the cross" to show why I believe in the salvation of all, and asked those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation to start a thread of their own on why they believe in what they believe. However instead of starting a thead on what you believe you started a thread on attacking the salvation of all. Not one person who believes in eternal torment or annihilation gave their reasons why they believed as they do even though the scriptures tell us to have a ready answer for salvation.
Here is the problem with the doctrine of eternal torment and annihilation, neither doctrine gives any hope of salvation to the world and that is why not one from either camp started a thread on eternal torment or annihilation.
And as you believe eternal torment is the end for the likes of me then you should be shouting about hell all the time instead of complaing that the universalist is the one who keeps bringing it up, seems to me you want to hide what you beleive in instead of shouting it from the roof tops.
Strange doctrine indeed (hell) that needs to hide itself and then complains when another brings it up.
This is rich comming from you Fin. Awhile ago I started a thread called "in defence of the cross" to show why I believe in the salvation of all, and asked those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation to start a thread of their own on why they believe in what they believe. However instead of starting a thead on what you believe you started a thread on attacking the salvation of all. Not one person who believes in eternal torment or annihilation gave their reasons why they believed as they do even though the scriptures tell us to have a ready answer for salvation.
Here is the problem with the doctrine of eternal torment and annihilation, neither doctrine gives any hope of salvation to the world and that is why not one from either camp started a thread on eternal torment or annihilation.
And as you believe eternal torment is the end for the likes of me then you should be shouting about hell all the time instead of complaing that the universalist is the one who keeps bringing it up, seems to me you want to hide what you beleive in instead of shouting it from the roof tops.
Strange doctrine indeed (hell) that needs to hide itself and then complains when another brings it up.
When an advocate of eternal talks about it,they are supposedly correcting erroneous teaching about it, when those who do not believe in its existence do so,they are arguing.
If they believe they are saved from it, they really are not keeping it quiet, if not, they are holding back the most important part of their salvation message, which is salvation from eternal hell.
Nobody is being fooled here apart from those think they don't speak what they believe.
Why is stating a fact rich? Universalists can't stop talking about hell, and that is a fact.
Quote:
Awhile ago I started a thread called "in defence of the cross" to show why I believe in the salvation of all, and asked those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation to start a thread of their own on why they believe in what they believe. However instead of starting a thead on what you believe you started a thread on attacking the salvation of all.
I started a thread exactly like yours with the purpose of highlighting the strawman argument in your thread. Why do you think the mods closed down your thread before people even had a chance to post there?
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