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Kim Davis was wrong. I said it then, I'll say it now. She was an elected official that refused to do the duties of her position. She should have resigned if she could not do her duty.
Having said that, she hardly represents all Christians.
The ones that the Supreme Court has stated did not have to violate their consciences by creating a product that they could not do in good will? He had served gay people before, and he had no issue serving gay people.
How about the couple that tried to destroy his business because he refused to bow to THEIR will? You don't fault them for it?
They are wrong to do so and I will call them out every time I see them. I've never met one. Oh, sure--I've seen the random post on here of some wingnut saying it. Congrats...out of a country of 320 million you can find a wingnut.
What do you want me to actually DO about it if I don't encounter it?
Will you call out the lesbian couple seeking to destroy a man's business simply because he disagrees? Or is hate ok if it goes the correct direction?
Hate goes both ways and can be wrong. I am not going to call out someone I do not even know a thing about their story. The one in Oregon who went to the bakery that recently baked a cake for the mother of one were accused by some on the R&S forum of seeking out those bakers to out them out 8f business.
As far as putting someone out of business intentionality I see two sides. If a holocaust denier who was also a racists and mygnomists was put out of business due to his stance I would not grieve at all. If a business was targeted to be put out of business cause it was simply owned by a member of any religion that is not correct. That a bakery can discriminate in some states is nor right.
The only way I can agree that a business can discriminate against a protected group on religious grounds if that business would be required t9 post at their entrance all groups that they wish to discriminate against. At least that would avoid yhe receiving party from any embrassment or humiliation they could receive. And if you don't know anyone who is abusive or discrmative against LBGT folks have you not even read posts by members here? If not thete are enough stories on line or read the Southern Poverty group, even if the tend to be on opposite sides of your political view. And the vending to the wills of other is not an accurate description of having to obey the law. When the courts rule that you can discriminate against LBGT then those bakers will have every right to refuse a legal product that the customer is legally permitted to obtain.
Glad you brought up the above passage of scripture, urbanlemur. It's one that is most favored by the 'anti-gay brigade' and one that they have no clue as to its meaning.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
That was my mistake in not including the two verses prior to where i began.
That's okay. I addressed Romans 1:18-27. My response is exactly the same. Paul is addressing idolatry.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Actually, we Christians do understand the meaning. if you refer back to verse 19 and 20 of Chapter 1: for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (Greek: anthropos), who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. this word "anthropos" means either individual but in this case, mankind in general. in addition, His attributes are manifest (Greek: phaneros) meaning publicly or outwardly shown to all. therefore, mankind is born with an inherent knowledge of God and all of creation stands as a testimony to His works. creation demands a Creator and design a Designer. His works are available for all to see. so what did mankind do? they (all men and women) suppressed that knowledge and gave themselves over to manmade philosophies and speculations regarding the existence of man. so it's not just those who once thought they followed God and left the faith; it's all of mankind that has basically denied the existence of God and are held accountable for it in light of all the evidence we have that God does indeed exist and is.
Not everyone has a degree in Theology, urban. Let's just stick to Paul's letter to the Church of Rome concerning THEIR specific issues pertaining to those who had abandoned God and had instead 'gone pagan'. There is no need to overly complicate verses 18-27 with the above red herrings and possible subterfuge.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
They are serving and worshiping 'the creature' rather than the Creator who they once worshiped and served.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
See previous paragraph
I did ...it contains red herrings . . .and possibly a measure of chicanery in order to mislead.
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Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
We need to understand here that Paul was NOT writing his letters to we of today in the year 2018 but to a specific early Christian Church, the recipients of whom would have understood what Paul is writing about.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
So you're saying that this part of Scripture and others like it are irrelevant for today and have no meaning for us?
Unless there are pagan temples today that are encouraging disgruntled Christians to join their team, those former Christians who no longer see any benefit in worshiping an invisible God and prefer to worship something tangible and participate in these forms of worship to images made in the likeness of mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles, those former Christians who perform sexual rituals with temple prostitutes in exchange for 'supernatural' favors ...then yes, that IS what I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Nothing could be further from the truth. ALL of Scripture is still just as applicable to day to us as it has been throughout history.
Alright. Have you stoned to death any disobedient children lately? How about those who profane the Sabbath (Friday sundown thru Saturday sundown) which is probably 90% of Christians? How about non-virgin brides on their wedding night? How about adulterers, i.e. those on their second or third marriage who sit in your church pews every week? How about homosexuals who you believe to be sinners and probably use Leviticus 20:13 as your biblical truth? Are you sure you want to go the "All of scripture is just as applicable today" route? "Ah, but, but, but ..." I hear you saying.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
What you present is merely a cop-out attitude in order to justify and entitle people today to do whatever they please with complete disregard for anything that is in the Bible.
Excuse me? Where have I done that? All I have done - and all I am interested in doing - is having accurately interpreted a particular scripture (Romans 1:18-27) that professed Christians have used and DO use to vilify homosexual people. If you can't follow my very clear interpretation of that passage of scripture then I have to question your comprehension ability.
By the way, you'll notice that, being the thorough guy that I am, I've tidied up your post.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
So i have to ask this question: if you start throwing out verses like these, what else are you going to eliminate?
Where did I lose you, urban? What verses of Romans 1 have I thrown out?
Concentrate ...!
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Why not start with the rest of the book of Romans? Why not the rest of Paul's writings? Why don't we just throw out the life of Jesus and that way you make the OT null and void? See where i'm going?
Um . . .no, I don't. Can I call a friend?
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
You either accept ALL of Scripture or you don't. you do not have the authority to pick and choose the parts of Scripture you want to allow and discard everything else. it's all or nothing.
<sigh> Here we go again ...have you stoned to death any disobedient children lately? How about those who profane the Sabbath (Friday sundown thru Saturday sundown) which is probably 90% of Christians? How about non-virgin brides on their wedding night? How about adulterers, i.e. those on their second or third marriage who sit in your church pews every week? How about homosexuals who you believe to be sinners and probably use Leviticus 20:13 as your biblical truth? Are you sure you want to go the "You either accept ALL of scripture or you don't" route? "Ah, but, but, but ..." I hear you saying.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Paul personally met with Jesus on the road to Damascus, went there and was baptized and thereafter, spent about 3 years in the wilderness. he returned to begin his ministry and traveled far and wide to share the same Gospel of Jesus Christ he persecuted Christians over prior to his conversion. to suggest that Paul had no clue as to what he was writing about is to question and/or deny the very power and ability that God gave him to preach Jesus with. i have full confidence that ALL of Scripture was inspired by God for men to write and that the words in the Bible are just as relevant today as they always have been and always will be. why? because God was, is and always will be God and He never changes or makes a mistake. mankind cannot make the same declaration.
The above is little more than gobble-de-****. It is not Christianity ...merely a religious rant.
I'm disappointed you didn't include Moses on the roster...
How about John the disciple - He was the one Jesus loved... that must mean something right...
Judas kissed Jesus on the cheek.
Why not include John, Judas, and Jesus on the roster as well?
Why not execute gays like your bible says? Why not hunt down Wiccans and imprison them or kill them---as your bible states? Why not stone adulterers? You've got a good many of them in your church, now don't you? I'm disappointed that you don't feel it necessary to obey ALL God's "word" as it is written, but then you are a hypocrite with regard to such things. You CHOSE what you want to believe while ignoring other admonitions in the exact same book that you use to condemn homosexuals.
That's how STUPID your post sounds. Just STUPID. Anyone can play the STUPID game, because it is the device of a non-thinking, non-loving person.
Besides YOU think I'm calling David and Jonathan "sinners." I think they were---just not for having a physical relationship with one another. The problem is YOURS, not mine.
Your love for "others" appears alarmingly love-deficient.
you'll find out the hard way what reality is when you die and that i would not want anyone to get used to
You, like me, will be dead when we die. You, like me, have NO knowledge of anything else. You may believe, but you obviously can't show any of us why your belief is correct. If you can, let us know how we can get that same knowledge using exactly same method you use, not by faith.
well, i am engaging in a two day detente so that my wife and i can be with family and then have our grandkids over. i hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving and be safe on the roads.
you'll find out the hard way what reality is when you die and that i would not want anyone to get used to
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Originally Posted by normstad
You, like me, will be dead when we die. You, like me, have NO knowledge of anything else. You may believe, but you obviously can't show any of us why your belief is correct. If you can, let us know how we can get that same knowledge using exactly same method you use, not by faith.
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Originally Posted by urbanlemur
well, i am engaging in a two day detente so that my wife and i can be with family and then have our grandkids over. i hope all of you have a great Thanksgiving and be safe on the roads.
Sorry normstad, he doesn’t have time to answer. We’re going to hell, so have a great Thanksgiving.
When we die, we all become worm food, and we will have as much cognition and consciousness as we had before we were conceived.
Get used to reality.
Unfortunately for you, that's just a baseless position. You have ZERO ZILCH NADA, no evidence to back up your statement. Even Steve Jobs said "oh my" when he drew his last breath. That alone should make someone pause and consider that there just may be life after death.
Why not execute gays like your bible says? Why not hunt down Wiccans and imprison them or kill them---as your bible states? Why not stone adulterers? You've got a good many of them in your church, now don't you? I'm disappointed that you don't feel it necessary to obey ALL God's "word" as it is written, but then you are a hypocrite with regard to such things. You CHOSE what you want to believe while ignoring other admonitions in the exact same book that you use to condemn homosexuals.
Same reason we don't sacrifice animals or give offerings to the priest at the tabernacle. Your position reeks of complete ignorance about the Christian faith.
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Originally Posted by Wardendresden
That's how STUPID your post sounds. Just STUPID. Anyone can play the STUPID game, because it is the device of a non-thinking, non-loving person.
Besides YOU think I'm calling David and Jonathan "sinners." I think they were---just not for having a physical relationship with one another. The problem is YOURS, not mine.
Your love for "others" appears alarmingly love-deficient.
You have zero evidence to even remotely suggest that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. How disgusting that you turn God's Holy Word into a tale of false perversion. David had a man murdered so he could have his wife. He was most certainly heterosexual.
You have zero evidence to even remotely suggest that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. How disgusting that you turn God's Holy Word into a tale of false perversion. David had a man murdered so he could have his wife. He was most certainly heterosexual.
Wait, if David was attracted to both men and women, that’s perverting “God’s Word”, but him being a murderous adulterer maintains Gods Word as holy?
Why not execute gays like your bible says? Why not hunt down Wiccans and imprison them or kill them---as your bible states? Why not stone adulterers? You've got a good many of them in your church, now don't you? I'm disappointed that you don't feel it necessary to obey ALL God's "word" as it is written, but then you are a hypocrite with regard to such things. You CHOSE what you want to believe while ignoring other admonitions in the exact same book that you use to condemn homosexuals.
That's how STUPID your post sounds. Just STUPID. Anyone can play the STUPID game, because it is the device of a non-thinking, non-loving person.
Besides YOU think I'm calling David and Jonathan "sinners." I think they were---just not for having a physical relationship with one another. The problem is YOURS, not mine.
Your love for "others" appears alarmingly love-deficient.
Why not execute? We are not under OT Judaism. For you to even suggest that just shows how ignorant you are biblical history and dispensations.
Regarding the "stupid" post... Your response is hilarious. I basically had the same criteria that you did. Two men kissed each other in both instances... men expressed love for one another in both instances... yet your conclusion of Jonathan being homosexual and David being bisexual is valid, while my conclusion is stupid. The truth is both assessments are stupid. Thanks for the laugh.
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