Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So Finn, are you going to dance with joy at knowing your loved ones will be eternally tortured since, according to you, this is God's will for them?
So, Eusebius, do you dance with joy in anticipation of the death of you loved ones, no matter how much pain there is involved in their process of dying? Do you dance with joy thinking about them dying in a burning car?
Yes, we all die, and its unfortunate, and sometimes there is imaginable pain involved. Do you dance with joy thinking about it?
These are the kinds of questions I typically do not ask, they are the kinds of questions you always ask.
Also, I have never said it is God's will that my loved ones will be "eternally tortured", so why would you insert those words into my mouth? You also added the part about "setting foot in church" as if that is what Christians believe brings salvation, when you full well know that is not the case.
Just like with practically everyone who I have seen support UR, there is a lot of dishonesty in the way you speak about the views of Christians. Why do you think universalists spend so much time and effort in misrepresenting the views of other people?
Saving people or condemning them to hell is God's business. The Bible is full of opinions, but has no concrete evidence that heaven or hell are "afterlife" destinations.
The Bible is full of opinions? Haha that's a new one.. so the Bible, you think, is just people sharing their different opinions on heaven and hell? You might aswell compile these forum threads on heaven and hell and call it a Bible then, our opinions after all are the ultimate authority right? Surely there could be no evidence, you say, just opinions.. every can just hold their own opinion, and we can compile them in a book so everyone can look at other peoples opinions on matters (they know nothing about because there is no evidence) and we'll just wait and see what happens after we die.
I am so happy the Bible is the Word of God, and not the opinion of man. And the Word of God is so clear about eternal life, heaven and hell. May every man be a liar, but God be true.
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man by our Lord Jesus Christ is enough by itself as evidence of heaven and hell. Just as a reminder:
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Now that man was not in some kind of purgatory where he would be purified and then enter heaven later on, it's clear there is no passing from hell to heaven and hell is conscious torment. But the difference between us and that man, is that we have time to repent in this life and do not have to go there! But this is the only time, the only chance, to be reconciled to God. So please take it to heart.
And as believers we have the opportunity that this man did not have anymore (even though he wanted to) to tell others to repent so they won't go there. But the sad thing is, most people won't be persuaded, even though Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
So, Eusebius, do you dance with joy in anticipation of the death of you loved ones, no matter how much pain there is involved in their process of dying? Do you dance with joy thinking about them dying in a burning car?
Yes, we all die, and its unfortunate, and sometimes there is imaginable pain involved. Do you dance with joy thinking about it?
These are the kinds of questions I typically do not ask, they are the kinds of questions you always ask.
Also, I have never said it is God's will that my loved ones will be "eternally tortured", so why would you insert those words into my mouth? You also added the part about "setting foot in church" as if that is what Christians believe brings salvation, when you full well know that is not the case.
Just like with practically everyone who I have seen support UR, there is a lot of dishonesty in the way you speak about the views of Christians. Why do you think universalists spend so much time and effort in misrepresenting the views of other people?
So am I correct to suggest you would be upset if God really did save everyone? Or would you not be upset if God saved everyone?
The story of Lazarus and the rich man by our Lord Jesus Christ is enough by itself as evidence of heaven and hell. Just as a reminder:
Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Now that man was not in some kind of purgatory where he would be purified and then enter heaven later on, it's clear there is no passing from hell to heaven and hell is conscious torment. But the difference between us and that man, is that we have time to repent in this life and do not have to go there! But this is the only time, the only chance, to be reconciled to God. So please take it to heart.
And as believers we have the opportunity that this man did not have anymore (even though he wanted to) to tell others to repent so they won't go there. But the sad thing is, most people won't be persuaded, even though Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
But Chanokh, the Rich man will get out of Hades. Do you want me to show you the verse which states as much?
Also, if you are going to take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus literally, are you also going to take the prodigal son parable right before it as literal? He died and went to a pig farm.
Nice straw man argument. No one said setting a foot in church saves you. Many people who have never been to church have been saved.
"whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"
Whoever believes. That is what Jesus taught, and it is repeated to no end in the Bible, so there would be no misunderstanding.
The thief on the cross believed, while the other mocked Jesus. The believer was saved. He did not set his foot in church.
It does not say "whoever sets foot in church shall not perish but have eternal life".
Jesus never said: "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life," nor did John write that the way you have it.
(GNT-V) ινα πας ο πιστευων εν αυτω εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
Joh 3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
(WNT) in order that every one who trusts in Him may have the Life of the Ages."
(YLT) that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
Your translation makes one think that if one does not believe that they are eternally shut out.
I have maintained over and over as does the Bible that all believing is pertaining to the oncoming eons. Those God does not give faith to will not have eonian life which is life pertainig to the eons. It would do you well to take some time and study adjectives and their purpose. No adjective, such as aionios is greater than the noun aion. Since the Bible says all the aions end, that which is eonian cannot be eternal.
So, can you just answer the question: "Would you be upset if God really did save all mankind?"
Since it seems to me you are kind of split 50/50 on God saving all and damning all to eternal hell fire and damnation. So why not teach both just so you can be sure? Why not teach that God is going to eternally damn the majority of mankind to an eternal torture chamber and God is going to save all mankind? That way you can make sure you touch all the bases.
As far as I am personally concerned, if God brought billions upon billions of people into the world and their final lot was eternal torture in fire, then, no, of course I would not and could not serve such a monstrous being. Such a being is far worse than the gods of the heathen.
Whoa... whoa.... did not say anything about 50/50. I believe 100% what is said about the final judgments and the lake of fire and who will be there. I do not believe all will be saved.
You need to pay close attention here, because this is where you have a huge problem IMO.
For me - while I believe what I believe what God stated in the Bible, at the end of the day, I recognize that it is taken by faith, and I understand that I could be wrong. Whatever the case may be, I am wherever God is on the issue and I will be with Him whether I am right or wrong. So if God chooses to save everybody - great - and I have no problem being in error. If chooses to send some to the lake of fire - great - because I will be with Him, and I trust Him enough to handle things as He sees fit.
For you - according to that second paragraph - you put your own personal beliefs as a higher priority than your relationship with God. In other words, if God doesn't perform as YOU want, then you won't serve Him. You talk a good game about God most of the time, but all of a sudden He turns into a monster because He does not line up with what you want. I think that says more about you than God. So who is really #1 in your life, you or God? Do you surrender all - including your belief system?
God is not subject to your belief system, or my belief system. He is going to do what He is going to do regardless of what we think. So be ready for Him to do things that you may not agree with.
One more thing - don't be confused with thinking I want you to agree with me. You do not have to agree with me. What I am suggesting is that you give room for God to be God, and trust Him enough to do wants He wants with HIS creation.
Proverbs 3:5 - "do not lean on your own understanding"
Romans 3:4 - "let God be true, and every man found a liar"
Saving people or condemning them to hell is God's business. The Bible is full of opinions, but has no concrete evidence that heaven or hell are "afterlife" destinations.
Understand Jesus as a personal Savior or understand Him as a great man of wisdom. Either way that understanding is meaningful only if it is transforming of attitudes and actions. Unfortunately fundamentalism has boiled Christianity down to "I believe" or "I don't."
Faith has been changed from meaning trust to meaning dogma. Fundamentalism no longer teaches walking in Jesus' footsteps but reinforces the dogmas it considers "important." I always thought that if Jesus felt either the His virgin birth or the Bible were important He would have included some comment about it in arguably His greatest sermon, The Sermon on the Mount. He didn't.
The abrogation of Jesus' teaching for dogma has undercut Jesus' call for action on the part of many of those claiming His name. After all, it is easier to say "I believe" this or that, than it is to treat one's enemies as oneself. Following Jesus requires radical suppression of one's self---and I can't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus rejected anyone for what they believed, if they were willing to do what was right with regard to others.
Does anyone think the story of the Good Samaritan was about right beliefs? Did God refuse him entry into the Kingdom because he didn't believe the correct Scripture or interpreted it differently? What about the priest and the Levite who passed the injured man by? All the correct beliefs according to the dominate religion. But is failure to act on behalf of others reason to throw away the keys to the Kingdom? I suppose it depends on how one translates the conclusion in Matt. 25. Both the sheep and goats call God "Lord" so it is a parable about all claiming to be believers.
If God saves all--that's His business. If He destroys all, that's His business.
My business is obedience to wisdom theology. If I preach--it will be about what Jesus saves us TO, not what He saves us from. He saves us to treat others as He treated them--nothing more, nothing less.
Life with Christ is much more than what you say it is. It's not surprising that you have chosen to limit Christianity as you have.
God does not save people to obey wisdom theology. He wants them to obey the Holy Spirit.
Jesus never said: "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life," nor did John write that the way you have it.
(GNT-V) ινα πας ο πιστευων εν αυτω εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
Joh 3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
(WNT) in order that every one who trusts in Him may have the Life of the Ages."
(YLT) that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
Your translation makes one think that if one does not believe that they are eternally shut out.
It's what he said. I don't care what you think 'eonian' means, a second, a minute, day, etc. It means eternal. It has been explained to you enough times, so I won't go there.
So, where did you get the "you must set foot in church" translation? Or are you saying it was your own invention?
No, I would not be upset. Why would I? I would ask Jesus to explain the discrepancy between what He taught and what actually happened.
If it is true, are you not committing a disservice as well by denying it? And attempting to convince others that it is not true?
If I am spreading God's message of salvation through faith in the death and resurrection of Christ, then I am on solid ground.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
