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You clearly ignore the obvious facts about your approach. The Bible clearly does not clearly report anything. The 30,000+ Christian denominations PROVE that irrefutable fact. And you, 007.5, have 000.0 authority about making biblical interpretations and doctrinal calls. So why would anybody buy what you are saying? No one in their right mind would listen to you or an other protestant visionary. YOU AND THEY HAVE NO AUTHORITY. NONE. ZIP. NADA.
Ask yourself, what is the ONLY organization that Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose here on earth? Not you and not me. But rather Jesus gave the keys to Peter. Peter and the Apostles set up His Church. And through Apostolic Succession the organization that still has the power today is the Catholic Church and to some degree the orthodox churches.
So quit using circular logic about the Bible being able to interpret itself and embrace the simple logic about who has teaching and doctrinal authority. Jesus gave it to HIS Church. Embrace the only organization that had the Jesus given Authority that could safely and accurately and infallibly canonize YOUR Bible. Yes, The Catholic Church. Jesus' church. Protected by the Holy Spirit for almost 2000 years.
Come on home. It just feels so good to be home.
Your first two sentences are very telling.....and it is senseless to continue a dialogue since you not only marginalize The Bible but think it is useless for being a reliable truth source because 'it doesnt report anything' . God would disagree with your conclusion about his inspired instructions and revelation of himself to mankind.
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome
Ask yourself, what is the ONLY organization that Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose here on earth? Not you and not me. But rather Jesus gave the keys to Peter.
Mat_16:19 I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth, shall be those having been loosed in the heavens."
The "you" was Peter and is singular, not plural. The nearest antecedent to "you" is "Peter."
Jesus did not say: "I have given you" but "I will be giving you."
And the keys are to the kingdom. Which kingdom? It is the kingdom Jesus will be setting up on the earth during the millennium. The Catholic Church was never the kingdom. And the Catholic Church was never the Circumcision church of Jerusalem headed by Peter.
[/i]
Mat_16:19 I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth, shall be those having been loosed in the heavens."
The "you" was Peter and is singular, not plural. The nearest antecedent to "you" is "Peter."
Jesus did not say: "I have given you" but "I will be giving you."
And the keys are to the kingdom. Which kingdom? It is the kingdom Jesus will be setting up on the earth during the millennium. The Catholic Church was never the kingdom. And the Catholic Church was never the Circumcision church of Jerusalem headed by Peter.
Further, every true Believer and Follower of Christ today , has been given the power of Heaven to bind, loose, and command in Jesus name. Just as a local Policeman has the authority of the entire national Law Enforcement Agency behind him...so the Follower of Christ has with Heavens authority. See Ephesians chapter 2 in particular with who we are in Christ .
Further, every true Believer and Follower of Christ today , has been given the power of Heaven to bind, loose, and command in Jesus name. Just as a local Policeman has the authority of the entire national Law Enforcement Agency behind him...so the Follower of Christ has with Heavens authority. See Ephesians chapter 2 in particular with who we are in Christ .
Yes, the majority of church fathers professed that the rock was Christ.
Jesus gave the power to bind and loose to the Circumcision believers. He did not tell the apostle Paul to tell the nations we have that right.
Further, every true Believer and Follower of Christ today , has been given the power of Heaven to bind, loose, and command in Jesus name. Just as a local Policeman has the authority of the entire national Law Enforcement Agency behind him...so the Follower of Christ has with Heavens authority. See Ephesians chapter 2 in particular with who we are in Christ .
No, you are completely incorrect. When it is asked what is this kingdom of which Christ spoke, there can be only one answer. It is His Church, the society of those who accept His Divine legation, and admit His right to the obedience of faith which He claimed. His whole activity is directed to the establishment of such a society: He organizes it and appoints rulers over it, establishes rites and ceremonies in it, transfers to it the name which had hitherto designated the Jewish Church, and solemnly warns the Jews that the kingdom was no longer theirs, but had been taken from them and given to another people.
The several steps taken by Christ in organizing the Church are traced by the Evangelists. He is represented as gathering numerous disciples, but as selecting twelve from their number to be His companions in an special manner. These share His life. To them He reveals the more hidden parts of His doctrine (Matthew 13:11). He sends them as His deputies to preach the kingdom, and bestows on them the power to work miracles. All are bound to accept their message; and those who refuse to listen to them shall meet a fate more terrible than that of Sodom and Gomorrha (Matthew 10:1-15).
The Sacred Writers speak of these twelve chosen disciples in a manner indicating that they are regarded as forming a corporate body. In several passages they are still termed "the twelve" even when the number, understood literally, would be inexact. The name is applied to them when they have been reduced to eleven by the defection of Judas, on an occasion when only ten of them were present, and again after the appointment of St. Paul has increased their number to thirteen (Luke 24:33; John 20:24; 1 Corinthians 15:5; Revelation 21:14).
In this constitution of the Apostolate Christ lays the foundation of His Church. But it is not till the action of official Judaism had rendered it manifestly impossible to hope the Jewish Church would admit His claim, that He prescribes for the Church as a body independent of the synagogue and possessed of an administration of her own. After the breach had become definite, He calls the Apostles together and speaks to them of the judicial action of the Church, distinguishing, in an unmistakable manner, between the private individual who undertakes the work of fraternal correction, and the ecclesiastical authority empowered to pronounce a judicial sentence (Matthew 18:15-17). To the jurisdiction thus conferred He attached a Divine sanction. A sentence thus pronounced, He assured the Apostles, should be ratified in heaven.
A further step was the appointment of St. Peter to be the chief of the Twelve. For this position he had already been designated (Matthew 16:15 sqq.) on an occasion previous to that just mentioned: at Cæsarea Philippi, Christ had declared him to be the rock on which He would build His Church, thus affirming that the continuance and increase of the Church would rest on the office created in the person of Peter. To him, moreover, were to be given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven — an expression signifying the gift of plenary authority (Isaiah 22:22). The promise thus made was fulfilled after the Resurrection, on the occasion narrated in John 21. Here Christ employs a simile used on more than one occasion by Himself to denote His own relation to the members of His Church — that of the shepherd and his flock. His solemn charge, "Feed my sheep", constituted Peter the common shepherd of the whole collective flock. To the twelve Christ committed the charge of spreading the kingdom among all nations, appointing the rite of baptism as the one means of admission to a participation in its privileges (Matthew 28:19).
With Christ having already left this world, in body, and having "passed the keys" to Peter, instructing the twelve to spread His message, bestowing on them the gifts of The Holy Spirit, he was establishing His church, to be governed by earth-bound bodies (Matthew 18:18; John 21:17). It is therefore a visible theocracy; and it to be substituted for the Jewish theocracy that has rejected Him (Matthew 21:43). In it, until the day of judgment, the bad will be mingled with the good (Matthew 13:41). Its extent will be universal (Matthew 28:19), and its duration to the end of time (Matthew 13:49); all powers that oppose it shall be crushed (Matthew 21:44). Moreover, it will be a supernatural kingdom of truth, in the world, though not of it (John 18:36). It will be one and undivided, and this unity shall be a witness to all men that its founder came from God (John 17:21).
Your first two sentences are very telling.....and it is senseless to continue a dialogue since you not only marginalize The Bible but think it is useless for being a reliable truth source because 'it doesnt report anything' . God would disagree with your conclusion about his inspired instructions and revelation of himself to mankind.
You just don't get it. Maybe, you are the rock.
What I am saying, is yes, The Bible is the inerrant, devinely inspired word of God useful for good works and teaching, however, the Bible does not speak for itself and therefore cannot interpret itself. Simply reading it as an individual does not work as a reliable way of getting to truth because everyone who reads it has had a different education, different environment, went to a different church, etc. No one can just walk up and read it and say, "this is the truth and this is what you must do to be saved." because everyone who reads it will come up a different conclusion. So who ultimately has the Authority to make the call on the proper interpretation. Simple. That would be the same organization who had the Authority to canonize your Bible in the first place. The Catholic Church.
Last edited by GoodToBeHome; 11-04-2011 at 03:53 PM..
No, you are completely incorrect. When it is asked what is this kingdom of which Christ spoke, there can be only one answer. It is His Church, the society of those who accept His Divine legation, and admit His right to the obedience of faith which He claimed. His whole activity is directed to the establishment of such a society: He organizes it and appoints rulers over it, establishes rites and ceremonies in it, transfers to it the name which had hitherto designated the Jewish Church, and solemnly warns the Jews that the kingdom was no longer theirs, but had been taken from them and given to another people.
The several steps taken by Christ in organizing the Church are traced by the Evangelists. He is represented as gathering numerous disciples, but as selecting twelve from their number to be His companions in an special manner. These share His life. To them He reveals the more hidden parts of His doctrine (Matthew 13:11). He sends them as His deputies to preach the kingdom, and bestows on them the power to work miracles. All are bound to accept their message; and those who refuse to listen to them shall meet a fate more terrible than that of Sodom and Gomorrha (Matthew 10:1-15).
The Sacred Writers speak of these twelve chosen disciples in a manner indicating that they are regarded as forming a corporate body. In several passages they are still termed "the twelve" even when the number, understood literally, would be inexact. The name is applied to them when they have been reduced to eleven by the defection of Judas, on an occasion when only ten of them were present, and again after the appointment of St. Paul has increased their number to thirteen (Luke 24:33; John 20:24; 1 Corinthians 15:5; Revelation 21:14).
In this constitution of the Apostolate Christ lays the foundation of His Church. But it is not till the action of official Judaism had rendered it manifestly impossible to hope the Jewish Church would admit His claim, that He prescribes for the Church as a body independent of the synagogue and possessed of an administration of her own. After the breach had become definite, He calls the Apostles together and speaks to them of the judicial action of the Church, distinguishing, in an unmistakable manner, between the private individual who undertakes the work of fraternal correction, and the ecclesiastical authority empowered to pronounce a judicial sentence (Matthew 18:15-17). To the jurisdiction thus conferred He attached a Divine sanction. A sentence thus pronounced, He assured the Apostles, should be ratified in heaven.
A further step was the appointment of St. Peter to be the chief of the Twelve. For this position he had already been designated (Matthew 16:15 sqq.) on an occasion previous to that just mentioned: at Cæsarea Philippi, Christ had declared him to be the rock on which He would build His Church, thus affirming that the continuance and increase of the Church would rest on the office created in the person of Peter. To him, moreover, were to be given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven — an expression signifying the gift of plenary authority (Isaiah 22:22). The promise thus made was fulfilled after the Resurrection, on the occasion narrated in John 21. Here Christ employs a simile used on more than one occasion by Himself to denote His own relation to the members of His Church — that of the shepherd and his flock. His solemn charge, "Feed my sheep", constituted Peter the common shepherd of the whole collective flock. To the twelve Christ committed the charge of spreading the kingdom among all nations, appointing the rite of baptism as the one means of admission to a participation in its privileges (Matthew 28:19).
With Christ having already left this world, in body, and having "passed the keys" to Peter, instructing the twelve to spread His message, bestowing on them the gifts of The Holy Spirit, he was establishing His church, to be governed by earth-bound bodies (Matthew 18:18; John 21:17). It is therefore a visible theocracy; and it to be substituted for the Jewish theocracy that has rejected Him (Matthew 21:43). In it, until the day of judgment, the bad will be mingled with the good (Matthew 13:41). Its extent will be universal (Matthew 28:19), and its duration to the end of time (Matthew 13:49); all powers that oppose it shall be crushed (Matthew 21:44). Moreover, it will be a supernatural kingdom of truth, in the world, though not of it (John 18:36). It will be one and undivided, and this unity shall be a witness to all men that its founder came from God (John 17:21).
Thanks for the invite cokatie but I think you Catholics have to learn to get along amongst yourselves first.
Many Catholics don't agree with how your church leaders have handled the coddling of your pedophile priests.
Many Catholics are going against the Pope on whether to use birth control or not.
There are Catholics who believe in abortion.
Some want clergy to marry, some don't.
There are evangelical Catholics who do not agree with the other Catholics.
But when you folks finally get your issues all straightened out (after almost 1500 years of existence, give us a ring. We are here with open arms.
I apologize again for my delay in responding to you and hope you understand the situation.
Honestly, Eusebius, I wasn't asking you to join us! As long as you're happy where you are, and I'm happy where I am - then God bless the both of us! I really am very open about how others choose to find their road to salvation and whatever higher being they choose to worship. This is their journey in life and I believe we have all been blessed with free will. I do love to discuss religion with others and discover the differences and the similarities that so many of us share. I have a true love of the Jewish faith which is SO rich in tradition and I have an immense sense of respect for people of that religion who have been persecuted so unfairly throughout history.
In addition, I have found great peace among members of the population who practice Buddhism - and in particular - I have been SO humbled by the words and actions of the present Dalai Lama. Funny enough, when viewing pictures of him during mediation, Mother Teresa at prayer and John Paul II at prayer - all three of them seem to share the same sense of peace and oneness with a greater being which I think all of us seek to find.
I also agree with you that through-out the history of the RCC, there have been moments of great shame, which as a member, is thus extended onto me. I've been very fortunate through-out life to meet with people far smarter and aware than I am. That's not to put me down - trust me, I can hold my own! But it serves to inspire me to want to learn more. For example, I can totally identify with some of Martin Luther's rightful rage at the condition and actions of a large number of RCC officials which resulted in his break from the church.
Personally speaking, I would have been pissed off WAY before 1517. I would have been horrified starting in 1492 when the Spanish Inquisition started. And as furious as I would have been when Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (1009), I think that The Crusades which kicked off in 1063 and lasted till almost 1300 were just awful. But again, others far wiser in historical events could easily prove me wrong on this point.
I would hope you believe me when I tell you that I was probably more horrified than you at the latest scandal to hit the church. Horrified, disgusted, furious - empty words that can't even begin to describe it. My love of children, their innocence and trust. To be so BRUTALLY violated. There are no words. I find the actions of the bishops and the cardinals in covering up this scandal equally reprehensible. The priests who committed the crimes should have been flung into jail. And the bishops and cardinals along with them for covering up a crime. ALL of them should have lost their collars. Every single last one of them. And don't worry that I'm just posting this here on an anonymous website - I've made my feelings known to the many priests I know - and also in a letter to my local bishop explaining why there would be less in my weekly envelope. I am NOT going to be party to paying for the legal expenses of defending these monsters. I would personally like to see a far more public and heartfelt Mea Maxima Culpa from the Pope.
So why am I still a practicing RC? Because, as one of the other posters here said, it's home. It just is. It is just a constant in my life. Through good times and through bad. It's always been there as a consolation and a sanctuary to me. You know, it's like your family. I don't think any of us were lucky enough to have been brought up like Beaver. There's ups and downs in every family. There are times (especially in your teens!) that you just HATE your Mom or your Dad or your brother or your sister. But you still come home at night. It's a place where with all your faults, they love you still.
The RCC is a LARGE organization of very human people. We're not always going to agree with each other on every issue. But we're also not going to walk away because we don't get our way. Again, I've been so fortunate in my life to have travelled through-out the world. And each Sunday morning, wherever I found myself, I would easily be able to locate a RCC and immediately feel "at home". From the grandeur (and extraordinary good fortune) of having a mass celebrated by Pope John Paul II at St. Peters, to celebrating mass with the Maori people on the south island of New Zealand, to an open air mass on the island of Bora Bora, and even to celebrating mass at a mission in the sands of Dubai. Anywhere I went, I would always know that I could find a "peace of home", a sense of the familiar, shared traditions, feeling as part of the "local family" - all within the comfort of my church. The Roman Catholic Church.
And I hate to end this on a note of correction, but just to your point above, we've been around far longer than 1500 years, my friend. Before the New Testament was written, there was a man called Jesus. And at the end of His time on earth, He handed His vision for His Father's new church (His Kingdom) to the twelve who were his Apostles. And more specifically (as mentioned in my other post) to Peter. And when Peter died in the year 67, the mantle was then passed to Linus. And from Linus, it went to Cletus, and then to Clement. And it has continued onward, without a break, right up to today.
And after the death of Our Lord, and as He had commanded them - the Apostles began their mission of spreading the good news. And through them, and their travels, and their letters, and what they told the faithful - the New Testament was written and recorded. But please bear this "chicken and the egg" complexity in mind: Before there WAS a New Testament, there was Jesus. And when Jesus departed he entrusted His Kingdom to the twelve. And of the twelve, he singled out St. Peter as the leader. And even biblically speaking, there is no doubt of that.
It is Peter who receives into the Church the first converts, alike from Judaism and from heathenism (Acts 2:41; 10:5 sq.), who works the first miracle (Acts 3:1 sqq.), who inflicts the first ecclesiastical penalty (Acts 5:1 sqq.). It is Peter who casts out of the Church the first heretic, Simon Magus (Acts 8:21), who makes the first Apostolic visitation of the churches (Acts 9:32), and who pronounces the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7). So indisputable was his position that when St. Paul was about to undertake the work of preaching to the heathen the Gospel which Christ had revealed to him, he regarded it as necessary to obtain recognition from Peter (Galatians 1:18). More than this was not needful: for the approbation of Peter was definitive.
So, at the end of this VERY long missive, can we get along? As I stated at the beginning - ABSOLUTELY. Wherever it is that you find your peace, your redemption, your truth - then that is home for you. And I mean this sincerely - I am TRULY happy for you. I don't seek to judge you, mock you, insult you, condemn you, anger you - none of these things. As far as I'm aware, we both honor and worship the same God and the Son He sent to redeem us. From a factual, historical and personal point of view, however, I will expect the same courtesy to be extended to me and to my religion.
I apologize again for my delay in responding to you and hope you understand the situation.
Honestly, Eusebius, I wasn't asking you to join us! As long as you're happy where you are, and I'm happy where I am - then God bless the both of us! I really am very open about how others choose to find their road to salvation and whatever higher being they choose to worship. This is their journey in life and I believe we have all been blessed with free will. I do love to discuss religion with others and discover the differences and the similarities that so many of us share. I have a true love of the Jewish faith which is SO rich in tradition and I have an immense sense of respect for people of that religion who have been persecuted so unfairly throughout history.
In addition, I have found great peace among members of the population who practice Buddhism - and in particular - I have been SO humbled by the words and actions of the present Dalai Lama. Funny enough, when viewing pictures of him during mediation, Mother Teresa at prayer and John Paul II at prayer - all three of them seem to share the same sense of peace and oneness with a greater being which I think all of us seek to find.
I also agree with you that through-out the history of the RCC, there have been moments of great shame, which as a member, is thus extended onto me. I've been very fortunate through-out life to meet with people far smarter and aware than I am. That's not to put me down - trust me, I can hold my own! But it serves to inspire me to want to learn more. For example, I can totally identify with some of Martin Luther's rightful rage at the condition and actions of a large number of RCC officials which resulted in his break from the church.
Personally speaking, I would have been pissed off WAY before 1517. I would have been horrified starting in 1492 when the Spanish Inquisition started. And as furious as I would have been when Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (1009), I think that The Crusades which kicked off in 1063 and lasted till almost 1300 were just awful. But again, others far wiser in historical events could easily prove me wrong on this point.
I would hope you believe me when I tell you that I was probably more horrified than you at the latest scandal to hit the church. Horrified, disgusted, furious - empty words that can't even begin to describe it. My love of children, their innocence and trust. To be so BRUTALLY violated. There are no words. I find the actions of the bishops and the cardinals in covering up this scandal equally reprehensible. The priests who committed the crimes should have been flung into jail. And the bishops and cardinals along with them for covering up a crime. ALL of them should have lost their collars. Every single last one of them. And don't worry that I'm just posting this here on an anonymous website - I've made my feelings known to the many priests I know - and also in a letter to my local bishop explaining why there would be less in my weekly envelope. I am NOT going to be party to paying for the legal expenses of defending these monsters. I would personally like to see a far more public and heartfelt Mea Maxima Culpa from the Pope.
So why am I still a practicing RC? Because, as one of the other posters here said, it's home. It just is. It is just a constant in my life. Through good times and through bad. It's always been there as a consolation and a sanctuary to me. You know, it's like your family. I don't think any of us were lucky enough to have been brought up like Beaver. There's ups and downs in every family. There are times (especially in your teens!) that you just HATE your Mom or your Dad or your brother or your sister. But you still come home at night. It's a place where with all your faults, they love you still.
The RCC is a LARGE organization of very human people. We're not always going to agree with each other on every issue. But we're also not going to walk away because we don't get our way. Again, I've been so fortunate in my life to have travelled through-out the world. And each Sunday morning, wherever I found myself, I would easily be able to locate a RCC and immediately feel "at home". From the grandeur (and extraordinary good fortune) of having a mass celebrated by Pope John Paul II at St. Peters, to celebrating mass with the Maori people on the south island of New Zealand, to an open air mass on the island of Bora Bora, and even to celebrating mass at a mission in the sands of Dubai. Anywhere I went, I would always know that I could find a "peace of home", a sense of the familiar, shared traditions, feeling as part of the "local family" - all within the comfort of my church. The Roman Catholic Church.
And I hate to end this on a note of correction, but just to your point above, we've been around far longer than 1500 years, my friend. Before the New Testament was written, there was a man called Jesus. And at the end of His time on earth, He handed His vision for His Father's new church (His Kingdom) to the twelve who were his Apostles. And more specifically (as mentioned in my other post) to Peter. And when Peter died in the year 67, the mantle was then passed to Linus. And from Linus, it went to Cletus, and then to Clement. And it has continued onward, without a break, right up to today.
And after the death of Our Lord, and as He had commanded them - the Apostles began their mission of spreading the good news. And through them, and their travels, and their letters, and what they told the faithful - the New Testament was written and recorded. But please bear this "chicken and the egg" complexity in mind: Before there WAS a New Testament, there was Jesus. And when Jesus departed he entrusted His Kingdom to the twelve. And of the twelve, he singled out St. Peter as the leader. And even biblically speaking, there is no doubt of that.
It is Peter who receives into the Church the first converts, alike from Judaism and from heathenism (Acts 2:41; 10:5 sq.), who works the first miracle (Acts 3:1 sqq.), who inflicts the first ecclesiastical penalty (Acts 5:1 sqq.). It is Peter who casts out of the Church the first heretic, Simon Magus (Acts 8:21), who makes the first Apostolic visitation of the churches (Acts 9:32), and who pronounces the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7). So indisputable was his position that when St. Paul was about to undertake the work of preaching to the heathen the Gospel which Christ had revealed to him, he regarded it as necessary to obtain recognition from Peter (Galatians 1:18). More than this was not needful: for the approbation of Peter was definitive.
So, at the end of this VERY long missive, can we get along? As I stated at the beginning - ABSOLUTELY. Wherever it is that you find your peace, your redemption, your truth - then that is home for you. And I mean this sincerely - I am TRULY happy for you. I don't seek to judge you, mock you, insult you, condemn you, anger you - none of these things. As far as I'm aware, we both honor and worship the same God and the Son He sent to redeem us. From a factual, historical and personal point of view, however, I will expect the same courtesy to be extended to me and to my religion.
Peace!
great post and thank you for showing others how a true catholic/christian person feels
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