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Let's be fair though - most fundies aren't like that. I worked with those folks for 30 years and live in the heart of the bible belt. Most fundies believe but grieve about a perceived 'eternal hell'.
I understand, i was a grieving fundamentalist before the lord pulled me out of that sinking ship. However i cant tell you how many i run into that only give a lip service to grieving for lost souls, but when it comes down to someone doing something they don't like or agree with, its all "hell fire and brimstone"! ... I cant tell you how many times i have heard a fundamentalist say, "your gonna' burn in hell!" ... Heck i said it so many times i am ashamed of how i felt and acted back then even when i was struggling with the lie ... Even after i had come to realize the truth of Gods plan and purpose for the ages, i had to struggle against the indoctrinated hate and violence that I had been programed with for so many years. Its a sad state of heart and mind to say the least, one which takes years of deprogramming and introspection in light of the love of God to be cured of.
I understand, i was a grieving fundamentalist before the lord pulled me out of that sinking ship. However i cant tell you how many i run into that only give a lip service to grieving for lost souls, but when it comes down to someone doing something they don't like or agree with, its all "hell fire and brimstone"! ... I cant tell you how many times i have heard a fundamentalist say, "your gonna' burn in hell!" ... Heck i said it so many times i am ashamed of how i felt and acted back then even when i was struggling with the lie ... Even after i had come to realize the truth of Gods plan and purpose for the ages, i had to struggle against the indoctrinated hate and violence that I had been programed with for so many years. Its a sad state of heart and mind to say the least, one which takes years of deprogramming and introspection in light of the love of God to be cured of.
Understood. Also I believe many of them only give lip service to the doctrine of hell, but in their heart of hearts don't believe it, and that explains why they are not with the dying in hospitals daily trying to stop that fate from occurring. Of course, we know why the hardcore Calvinists aren't there.
It is troubling to think of those who believe in free will and ET but yet goof off online all day...
I know that everyone will eventually be saved. That is because I believe in an ALMIGHTY God that carries out His plan to perfection and will accomplish it. That nothing can cause Him to fail in ANY part of it.
God's wrath is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. What do you do with those verses?
How are people saved outside of the believing the gospel?
God's wrath is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. What do you do with those verses?
Wrath, anger, jealousy, vengeance etc. are ALL HUMAN traits . . . NOT God's. Attributing them to God was natural for our primitive ancestors . . . but it was WRONG! Those are misinterpretations of the existence of negative consequences. The consequences exist because that is how God designed the universe. We are to learn about them and avoid them . . . just as we learn to avoid violating the law of gravity.
Quote:
How are people saved outside of the believing the gospel?
Wrath, anger, jealousy, vengeance etc. are ALL HUMAN traits . . . NOT God's. Attributing them to God was natural for our primitive ancestors . . . but it was WRONG! Those are misinterpretations of the existence of negative consequences. The consequences exist because that is how God designed the universe. We are to learn about them and avoid them . . . just as we learn to avoid violating the law of gravity. By "loving God and each other."
MysticPhD - You got it backwards. We are made in God's image according to Genesis 1. So any anger, jealousy, etc. comes from Him. The difference is that He does not sin with His emotions - we do.
People are not saved by loving God and others. We are sinners and we need to be cleaned from the inside out. Upon believing the gospel, God cleans up our spirit so that we are able to stand in His presence.
God's wrath is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible. What do you do with those verses?
How are people saved outside of the believing the gospel?
The main problem people have in understanding how to reconcile the scriptures that deal with Gods judgments and wrath and those that speak of love, especially 1Jo 4:8 and the whole 4th chapter of 1 john together, is in thinking that Gods love and his wrath and judgments/justice are separate or somehow mutually exclusive. This is a terrible misunderstanding.
God IS love ...
And no other quality of God stands above or is exclusive of love, because he IS love.
All of Gods other attributes derive from His love, even his wrath ...
Quote:
Sgs 8:6-7
6Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
7Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.
The fire of Gods wrath is derived from his jealous love for his creation. His fiery judgments are therefore also derived from his jealous love and are for the purpose of reconciling all that which is estranged from him due to sin and death.
The whole concept of the "unquenchable fires" of Gods judgment is derived from this understanding. The fire of Gods jealous love cannot be quenched.
Also Gods mercies endures, but his wrath will not always be ...
Quote:
1Ch 16:41
41And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the LORD, because his mercy endureth for ever;
Mic 7:18
Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Isa 57:16-19
16For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
These are just a few of the verses that show Gods anger will not last for ever, but his mercies will endure. God is truly just because all of his judgments are ultimately tempered by his mercy. Because the does not delight in his anger, but he delights in his mercy ... for God IS love.
No one can be saved outside of Christ, but in the fullness of times every tongue shall confess that Christ is lord and every tongue shall swear allegiance to him ... (Phl 2:11,Rom 14:11,Isa 45:23)
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-27-2009 at 11:56 PM..
MysticPhD - You got it backwards. We are made in God's image according to Genesis 1. So any anger, jealousy, etc. comes from Him. The difference is that He does not sin with His emotions - we do.
No . . . ignorant primitive savages interpreted God AS IF He were HUMAN. What is in God's image is our creativity and consciousness. Psychology unquestionably establishes that those other negative emotions are the product of HUMAN WEAKNESSES, period. To attribute them to God we would have to assume God has those same weaknesses . . . that is absurd!! We are only saved by "love of God and each other" because that is what provides the cover of Jesus's love for us ALL (His grace) and makes us acceptable to God.
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