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Thanks, Kat. You are right that I answered in haste, but to tell you the truth, I did use my backspace key a few times before I narrowed it down to that! It was offensive to me that he insinuated that Wikipedia somehow was a substitute for the bible for me (that's how I took it), when obviously, I was using it to explain how a potter makes clay since I am not a potter and couldn't explain it in my own words.
I'm glad you understood my post because reading about the process, and how clay can ONLY become pottery AFTER it goes through the fire was very meaningful to me. Clay and potter do not have the same root word, but potter and pottery do, if you know what I mean! After he refines us and brings us to "maturity" (also mentioned in Wikipedia article), we are "hardened" and "permanently," "irreversibly" changed from clay to pottery.
Yes! I think many of us, who are not potters, forget that formed clay doesn't make pottery. It is the hardening process that makes clay into a usable item.
This process has not changed except that now we have kilns that make it a quicker process. The same for metallurgy - heat changes the property of the metal to the purpose of the metal worker.
I totally understand what you were saying and what phaze was getting at. I am amazed that I didn't see the usefulness of fire in the process... without it the clay would just be clay and not useful.
Yes! I think many of us, who are not potters, forget that formed clay doesn't make pottery. It is the hardening process that makes clay into a usable item.
This process has not changed except that now we have kilns that make it a quicker process. The same for metallurgy - heat changes the property of the metal to the purpose of the metal worker.
I totally understand what you were saying and what phaze was getting at. I am amazed that I didn't see the usefulness of fire in the process... without it the clay would just be clay and not useful.
Liability.
Think about it. Why all the warning labels on products and instructions? ... When a maker or service provider discloses any hazzards or life threating consequense for improper usage, you can't claim in court that you havn't been warned. They aren't liable for not heeding the warnings.
You have an interesting point.
However, Jesus didn't warn everybody. The woman at the well, the woman with the issue of blood, the woman who begged Jesus to heal her daughter.
We don't see the apostles warning people in the book of Acts, either. Mentioned only twice in the KJV, in ch. 2 where Peter is preaching about David not being left in hell.
The new testament epistles talk about it 1 time in James (the "course of nature set on fire by hell") and 2 peter about angels being sent to hell.
For being a topic which modern-day Christianity mulls over night and day, I have to say that the New Testament talks about it almost never!!
HUH? I just read through exodus and see that Pharaoh's army was killed but not Pharaoh himself... where do you see that?
Also, God says he shows his power by killing people? or destroying them? I don't see that, perhaps you can show me how you would see God's power if he killed your child. Killing people is easy, not powerful. Saving people is hard, and shows power.
2 Cor. 4:6-7 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
What is the all-surpassing power from God that is being shown here?
I quoted from Romans 9, where God says he raised Pharaoh so he could show His power in him. If you don't agree with the text, then don't agree.
That passage is talking about the hardening of Pharaoh not his destruction or death...Pharaoh was not destroyed by God but manipulated (if you will) by God.
Romans 9:16-21
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
(see how it is not dependent on man but solely God?)
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
(The footnotes state this is referring to Exodus 9:16 "But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.)
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
(God hardened Pharaoh to show that even without man's permission, God can do what he wills)
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
(again...who resists the will of God?)
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
(Isaiah 29:16; 45:9)
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
(Back to Pottery 101 )
So really God allowed Pharaoh to remain in power so that God could show that hardened hearts have no effect on the will of God as he is the potter who molds the clay. He gives mercy to whomever he wills to give it to and no amount of protest will change what God WILL DO.
Your comment meant nothing except to show your unwillingless to learn the things of God. You know that the potter and the clay are symbolic of God working in the lives of individuals, but you refuse to even learn what that symbolism means. I added another comment right before you posted, which might be food for thought:
This puts a new light on this verse, also. Romans 9:18: "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
Thank you, BHFT. Understanding how pottery is made does shed light on that verse for me. He softens to re-create (Saul/Paul) and hardens (Pharaoh) so that the individual cannot do anything OTHER than what God wanted them to do, all for MUCH higher purposes, most of which we are completely unaware of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
The wikipedia stuff was simply to explain the process of pottery... not as a biblical principal...
But since you asked... the process of pottery is indeed applicable because many analogies are made using pottery and metallurgy and farming:
Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Mal. 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.
The concept of the kiln in pot making and the refining fire of metal working and the furnace burning the chaff of farming and even the soap of the launderer are all representative of the cleansing that happens.
The point is that the result of all these things is a completed useful vessel, strong/pure metal, fruit-bearing trees, usable crops, clean linens.... but what is the result of the burning in hell?
There are a lot of analogies in the Bible. God used them because he knew we were in fleshly bodies and were working in the physical realm, so he often used what we KNEW to teach us something we DID NOT know; something higher, spiritual.
It is kind of hard these days to understand the Bible because we are so far removed (a lot of us are, anyway) from the examples that were shown in the Bible (sowing fields, pottery, refining metals, etc.) that would have helped us understand some of these things. A lot of us work inside now-a-days, and being that we are flooded with advanced technology today the Biblical examples might go right over our heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Perhaps the mods could change the title of this thread to "Pottery For Dummies".
If you equate the term "Hell" to a place of eternal misery, then no, you will not find one ounce of warning to that effect for Adam and Eve.
Probably because you want to interpet it that way...which you're entitled to.
I would tend to say they knew in general terms because of their relationship with God prior to the fall. I'm sure that they knew that God didn't tolerate the angels who rebelled (the war in heaven Revelation 12:7) which happened before they sinned.
"they [the rebellious angels] lost their place in heaven" Revelation 12:7-8
Being that this war took place prior to Gen 3 (the fall) and creation was not under the curse, one can conclude that:
this location (hell) is a place where humanity was never intended to experience or see.
there is no such thing as a "physical death" for a non-physical being.
By default then "Death" for non-physical being who "lost their place in heaven" is hell eternally.
Here's my thought progression:
Adam & Eve were not "all-knowing" and certain knowledge was withheld from them (i.e. nakedness).
they knew that the arch-angel "Morning Star" (now Satan who was speaking to them) and others "lost their place in heaven"
But they didn't know where "hell" was, or how bad "death" was
And there was this tree in the middle of the Garden, by whose fruit would give them the answers, if only they would eat some of it.
They fell for the lie...they didn't become like God, but they got their answer.............. knowledge of good and evil.
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It was offensive to me that he insinuated that Wikipedia somehow was a substitute for the bible for me (that's how I took it), when obviously, I was using it to explain how a potter makes clay since I am not a potter and couldn't explain it in my own words.
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