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Old 05-27-2010, 09:02 AM
 
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[quote=sciotamicks;14356154]
Quote:
What that specific scripture, as realized again from what transpired during the first passover, is merely salvation to a house being an exceedingly precious idea as stated, yet expressing the new air that would proceed from the gospel and breathe into it, and the new impulses of the gospel would proceed from its head which would reach the members of the house hold...
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand a thing you just said...is this going to be another Alabama vs. Daniel, like the Greek Parsing Help thread?...LOL

Quote:
Again Alabama, it must take a clear conscious decision to be saved from your sin, and surrender unto Christ. Unless you aren't capable of making this decision IMO, although the scriptures don't really teach this, and this is mere speculation on my part in regards to David's newborn son's death and his comfort, it is assumed that children, or those young enough to never have the opportunity to make this decision, will not perish.
Now look, the reason David KNEW that he would one day be with his son was because David had the faith of Abraham. He believed, like Abraham, that God justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5).

Did it ever occur to you why God blessed Noah and his sons after the flood?

Gen 9:1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Do you think God blessed Noah and his sons so that there would be more people for God to be ET'ing? I would certainly hope not....

Having children is a good thing, a wonderful thing. It's a blessing from God that we are to enjoy. We should have no fear, or even the slightest inclination that God will set on fire and torment for eternity any one of our children, or anyone else's. None. And why should it be limited to these children up until an age of accountability? Does somehow the flesh become accountable to God at a particular time to "make a decision"? Of course not. The flesh will NEVER make a decision for it's own spiritual good, regardless of what the age of the flesh is, whether a child or otherwise. It CANNOT. The flesh is dead to God and the things of the Spirit. Only the Spirit can bring anyone to spiritual life. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that born of the Spirit is spirit (Joh 3:6). Do you remember what God said prior to God blessing Noah and his sons? Look here:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Why are we to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, if all these children grow up to be youths with evil hearts? And how can this possibly be a blessing to us or God? I'll tell you how: Because God justifies the ungodly.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And how are our little ones justified, as well as anyone else for that matter? Here you go:

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

There is really no difference between us and our little ones when it comes to Christ's work. Christ died for the ungodly and God justifies the ungodly. Our age plays no part in our justification before God. It's the same for a 1 day old infant as it is for a 100 year old grandparent. Christ died for all, all are ungodly. And God justifies the ungodly, all the ungodly.

But the reason some do not believe this (ETer's that is) is because they do not have the faith of Abraham. They do not believe like David, and KNOW that they will be with their children in the hereafter, regardless of what age their children are, or until what age their children live to.

Sciota, you really need to start thinking like Abraham and David. Give up the ET'ing and start believing the Good News, it's real.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,451,387 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Huh? Do you know disturbed that sounds?
Yes it is disturbing.. but that logic follows. If Children are exempt from burning in hell and we as parents love them enough to prevent that fate at all costs then it naturally follows that God would have known this and so there cannot be an age of accountability and it be a sin to abort or kill children.

I am simply stating the obvious. I would have an older brother right now going to hell as my mother says I am going to hell. And thinking back on all her actions toward me I am surprised she didn't harm me to prevent this!

I thank God she was more worried about her own fate in hell if she murdered me than mine!

Point is that if there are exceptions to God's rule that one must consciously choose him then the rule itself is worthless because it would cause humans to give up the lives of their children while they know the children would be in heaven where they could see them later. Rather than the child spending eternity in hell away from the parent.

So there cannot be an age of accountability. I am not offering another explanation... just, like I stated before, pointing out the obvious problems that arise with children automatically being saved.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,451,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I disagree. People that kill their children don't have Christ in them, even though they think they are justifying and securing their salvation, like some have in our history. The whole purpose of Christ being in you, is to overcome sin, and defeat it.
Right! However, a parent can ask for forgiveness in their lifetime and still be saved... right? so they can't force their grown child to accept Christ but they CAN ensure they go to heaven. Some mothers would even go so far as to kill their children thinking that they have SAVED them even if that means the mother must spend their life regretting it and their eternity in hell. At least their children share the glory of heaven.

Yes! the whole purpose is to LIVE and overcome sin so that you may have a life more abundant. But in looking at the ET/AN posts it seems that the whole purpose is to AVOID hell by being saved.

If the purpose is to avoid a bad afterlife then killing children makes sense.

Now, none of the URers think this is right which is one of the reasons we don't ascribe to eternal burning or annihilation.
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Old 05-27-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,451,387 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand a thing you just said...is this going to be another Alabama vs. Daniel, like the Greek Parsing Help thread?...LOL

Now look, the reason David KNEW that he would one day be with his son was because David had the faith of Abraham. He believed, like Abraham, that God justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5).

Did it ever occur to you why God blessed Noah and his sons after the flood?

Gen 9:1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Do you think God blessed Noah and his sons so that there would be more people for God to be ET'ing? I would certainly hope not....

Having children is a good thing, a wonderful thing. It's a blessing from God that we are to enjoy. We should have no fear, or even the slightest inclination that God will set on fire and torment for eternity any one of our children, or anyone else's. None. And why should it be limited to these children up until an age of accountability? Does somehow the flesh become accountable to God at a particular time to "make a decision"? Of course not. The flesh will NEVER make a decision for it's own spiritual good, regardless of what the age of the flesh is, whether a child or otherwise. It CANNOT. The flesh is dead to God and the things of the Spirit. Only the Spirit can bring anyone to spiritual life. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that born of the Spirit is spirit (Joh 3:6). Do you remember what God said prior to God blessing Noah and his sons? Look here:

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Why are we to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, if all these children grow up to be youths with evil hearts? And how can this possibly be a blessing to us or God? I'll tell you how: Because God justifies the ungodly.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And how are our little ones justified, as well as anyone else for that matter? Here you go:

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

There is really no difference between us and our little ones when it comes to Christ's work. Christ died for the ungodly and God justifies the ungodly. Our age plays no part in our justification before God. It's the same for a 1 day old infant as it is for a 100 year old grandparent. Christ died for all, all are ungodly. And God justifies the ungodly, all the ungodly.

But the reason some do not believe this (ETer's that is) is because they do not have the faith of Abraham. They do not believe like David, and KNOW that they will be with their children in the hereafter, regardless of what age their children are, or until what age their children live to.

Sciota, you really need to start thinking like Abraham and David. Give up the ET'ing and start believing the Good News, it's real.
Um... my posts look silly compared to this one...

But the point is the same... Christ died for the ungodly. Children, teens, adults, rebels, the elderly... all people Christ died for.

Great post alabama!
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Old 05-27-2010, 04:44 PM
 
3,680 posts, read 489,905 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The issue really is this meerkat, the scriptures were written in a Jewish mindset, not Grecian like we know and understand, so the customs and culture must always be considered, especially in this matter. As it appears, even though it was not covered of at all in the scriptures except in the case of David's son, we must infer based on the custom of accountability, that it is implied, and those who cannot make these decisions, are cared for.

But as Paul said, none of us...not one...seeks God, and we are all, without excuse, yet like I said, it isn't consistent with God's character and decree to mankind IMO, to punish someone who never knew in the first place, but for the one that does, the punishment IMO, is well deserved.
That is why I do not believe that "the lake of fire" is a literal fire for the torment of those that do not "believe". i.e are not a "christian"

In the past I have said that when Jesus says believe and be saved from wrath he seemed to be directing that at the Jews about a physical judgment.

When I read the scriptures judgment seems to be against evil deeds - those that do wicked are wicked

Things seem to get mingled with Jesus speaking to the Jews about the destruction that was coming to them in 70AD for their rebellion and wickedness against the God that they knew, (however we are told that they were bound over to that blindness all are bound in unbelief so God can have mercy on all), to saying that it is talking about humans having to save themselves from eternal torture.............

Just as it makes no sense to eternally punish a baby/young child for being born, it makes no sense given the nature of God (love, joy, peace, patience, etc) to eternally torment any human being for being born a finite human being. We have no choice in being in Adam
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Old 05-28-2010, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,600,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I disagree. People that kill their children don't have Christ in them, even though they think they are justifying and securing their salvation, like some have in our history. The whole purpose of Christ being in you, is to overcome sin, and defeat it.
Still missing the point I am trying to make.

Unless you believe in damned babies and small children then they HAVE secured their salvation (whether you think the act was "justified" or not).
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Old 05-28-2010, 07:55 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,449,793 times
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Still missing the point I am trying to make.

Unless you believe in damned babies and small children then they HAVE secured their salvation (whether you think the act was "justified" or not).
"Missing the point" is a product of doublethink. Babies being damned in hell and murdering babies to ensure their salvation are both horrible ideas, yet one of these ideas must be rational when you believe in eternal hell. But of course the doublethinker will reject both of these ideas (damned babies/murdering babies to save them), even though a rational belief in eternal torment demands that one of them be true.

Doublethink is required to maintain a belief in eternal damnation.
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Old 05-28-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,806,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
"Missing the point" is a product of doublethink. Babies being damned in hell and murdering babies to ensure their salvation are both horrible ideas, yet one of these ideas must be rational when you believe in eternal hell. But of course the doublethinker will reject both of these ideas (damned babies/murdering babies to save them), even though a rational belief in eternal torment demands that one of them be true.

Doublethink is required to maintain a belief in eternal damnation.
That is a very good point......and it is very true.
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Old 05-28-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,089,581 times
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Latte, I see what you are saying.

But aren't you putting God in a box when you say He won't be able to save everyone (due to man's alleged free will), even though you believe He reveals Himself to everyone in this life? The same argument applies: with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible - including saving all men, even though it may not seem apparent to us.

Now I don't believe God reveals Himself to everyone in this life, because if He did, all would be following Him. But He does this for a purpose.
Well when I seen your reply, I knew exactly what you were going to say..... after two & half years posting here you get to know certain poster's and just what they are going to post !!

And no, how could I be putting God in a box when the word of God teaches not all men will receive Jesus Christ, because they love their evil ways more then knowing the truth of their sin..... John 3, Rom.1 & 2 for starts teach this, oh, there are so many scripture teaching not all men will be saved. And many individuals have posted every one of them, thread after thread. And I do believe those God is leading who is seeking Him will open those threads to them !! There is not a shadow of doubt in my heart !

Now is the day of salvation..... for this is what the scripture teaches, not later or another time, especially after death !!

II Cor.6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.


Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."


Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."


Psalm 74:12
But you, O God, are my king from of old; you bring salvation upon the earth.


Isaiah 45:8
"You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it.


Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."


Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.


Not just some...... legoman !!

Also.....
Luke 3:6
And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "


Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "


1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.


And we see this done all over the earth, TV, Billboards, Newspaper advertisement, Books, Internet, people are proclaiming God one way or another all over the world.

Psalm 40:10
I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and salvation. I do not conceal your love and your truth from the great assembly.


Lot's of folks doing this..... missionaries, the believers all over the world. Everyone has a friend and they have a friend......

What bothers me is what I highlighted...... because, legoman, you're denying or blinded to a whole bunch of the scripture that speaks opposite of this universalist position.
In which doesn't surprise me because the doctrine many adhere to is not of God and not taught in the scripture ! This isolating and taking scripture out of context is awful and do know it breaks the Father's heart.

Just like I said to Brian, what makes you and other's so much more special or privileged that God is only going to show you, now, while your still alive walking on this earth... and not other's ?
See that is where you put God in the box, when He is reaching out to the whole world right now, He is longsuffering, patient in bringing the good news to all men now, the scripture speak & teaches this..... even while I am writing this, some one is getting saved !! Hallelujah !!!

Please DON'T give me the "He's got a purpose" well His purpose is now, not later to save people from their sin !!!
Many who deny this now will see the truth later on and in that day when Christ comes to judge the world. And because of teaching a false doctrine the shame and weeping many will be doing because of all those they led astray from the truth because of their fear of what God has said He will do to those who continue to reject Him and not hate their sin !!!

Psalm 67
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah
2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.
3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah
5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
6 Then the land will yield its harvest,
and God, our God, will bless us.
7 God will bless us,
and all the ends of the earth will fear him.


The whole Bible, OT & NT shouts this message that God is speaking to the whole world now, not later !!!!
Listen, I will not answer any more of your post with there false accusations, and argue with you over the word of God !! I know that it does not please the Lord......

It's just sad and breaks my heart that you and other's allowed your fears to take you away from God's precious truth !! And claiming it is God's love that you follow now, it isn't, you have denied the living God of all Creation His right to His Holy justice against sin, and proclaim a false god in His name !!

Your a pretty nice guy.... legoman and I hate seeing this happen....

Blessings to you.....
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Old 05-28-2010, 01:16 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,449,793 times
Reputation: 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Well when I seen your reply, I knew exactly what you were going to say..... after two & half years posting here you get to know certain poster's and just what they are going to post !!

And no, how could I be putting God in a box when the word of God teaches not all men will receive Jesus Christ, because they love their evil ways more then knowing the truth of their sin..... John 3, Rom.1 & 2 for starts teach this, oh, there are so many scripture teaching not all men will be saved. And many individuals have posted every one of them, thread after thread. And I do believe those God is leading who is seeking Him will open those threads to them !! There is not a shadow of doubt in my heart !

Now is the day of salvation..... for this is what the scripture teaches, not later or another time, especially after death !!

II Cor.6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.


Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."


Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."


Psalm 74:12
But you, O God, are my king from of old; you bring salvation upon the earth.


Isaiah 45:8
"You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it.


Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."


Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.


Not just some...... legoman !!

Also.....
Luke 3:6
And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "


Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "


1 Chronicles 16:23
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.


And we see this done all over the earth, TV, Billboards, Newspaper advertisement, Books, Internet, people are proclaiming God one way or another all over the world.

Psalm 40:10
I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and salvation. I do not conceal your love and your truth from the great assembly.


Lot's of folks doing this..... missionaries, the believers all over the world. Everyone has a friend and they have a friend......

What bothers me is what I highlighted...... because, legoman, you're denying or blinded to a whole bunch of the scripture that speaks opposite of this universalist position.
In which doesn't surprise me because the doctrine many adhere to is not of God and not taught in the scripture ! This isolating and taking scripture out of context is awful and do know it breaks the Father's heart.

Just like I said to Brian, what makes you and other's so much more special or privileged that God is only going to show you, now, while your still alive walking on this earth... and not other's ?
See that is where you put God in the box, when He is reaching out to the whole world right now, He is longsuffering, patient in bringing the good news to all men now, the scripture speak & teaches this..... even while I am writing this, some one is getting saved !! Hallelujah !!!

Please DON'T give me the "He's got a purpose" well His purpose is now, not later to save people from their sin !!!
Many who deny this now will see the truth later on and in that day when Christ comes to judge the world. And because of teaching a false doctrine the shame and weeping many will be doing because of all those they led astray from the truth because of their fear of what God has said He will do to those who continue to reject Him and not hate their sin !!!

Psalm 67
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah
2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.
3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah
5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.
6 Then the land will yield its harvest,
and God, our God, will bless us.
7 God will bless us,
and all the ends of the earth will fear him.


The whole Bible, OT & NT shouts this message that God is speaking to the whole world now, not later !!!!
Listen, I will not answer any more of your post with there false accusations, and argue with you over the word of God !! I know that it does not please the Lord......

It's just sad and breaks my heart that you and other's allowed your fears to take you away from God's precious truth !! And claiming it is God's love that you follow now, it isn't, you have denied the living God of all Creation His right to His Holy justice against sin, and proclaim a false god in His name !!

Your a pretty nice guy.... legoman and I hate seeing this happen....

Blessings to you.....
Blessings to you Latte... and you probably know how I am going to respond to you, but here I go anyways...

To sum it up, I see those verses differently than you. And I don't see it as taking away God's justice. If anything I feel a belief in eternal torment does that - eternal torment is the most unjust thing possible. IMHO annihilation is probably the most just thing man can come up with in the true sense of the word justice, but God is even more just than that because He can ensure the exact specific amount of punishment and correction is given, and He can ensure that it will achieve the exact results He desires: the reconciliation of all.

So again I don't disagree with the verses you posted, but I disagree with your interpretation. Sure, maybe some or much of the earth sings God's praises. But certainly not all. Certainly Sadam wasn't singing God's praises before He died. Certainly much of Japan/Korea/China/other atheistic countries aren't proclaiming God's praises. Certainly the atheists in the atheist forum aren't singing God's praises. Yes I agree that there are pockets of believers everywhere, but it is not the whole earth. So Psalm 67 is not fulfilled yet. Neither is 1 Chron 16:23 etc. Many of the other verses you posted show that God will save all, you just don't see it that way. ALL OF MANKIND WILL SEE GOD'S SALVATION, RIGHT?! I believe it.

Latte, His purpose is always the same: to make us in His image. He will achieve that in ALL. But it certainly isn't achieved in this life because many people die who are not reflecting God's image. That is what I mean by His purpose. Part of that purpose is Him teaching us good and evil, so we will be humbled, so we learn patience and love. God is love, so we have to learn what love is and isn't.

God's purpose is not to burn people forever or separate people from Himself forever. God is not desperately trying to save each individual, hoping they will make the right choice. God is not an idiot. God is GOD. God knows how it will all turn out and has decreed every step and mis-step we will make. And He works it all for His great purpose, so we will all be made fully in His image. Adam was not fully in God's image, otherwise He would not have sinned.

Those scriptures you quote - please try to listen here - you are doing exactly what you accuse me of: ignoring other scripture.

Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

God sends a strong delusion on the world so that those who don't receive the truth will not believe (2 Thes 2:10-11). God didn't give them the truth. God created Satan knowing He would deceive the whole world. Is Satan doing something God didn't want to happen? God even sends out lying spirits (1 Kings 22). Jesus spoke in parables so people would not understand. Do you get this? If we are to believe in eternal torment then we must believe God wants people to go there because He doesn't make it easy for people to understand the truth. Don't you see the problem here?

Part of the whole delusion on this world is the belief that God will allow someone to suffer forever. God Himself created this delusion because it is not part of His plan for everyone to understand now. God has concluded people in disbelief so that He can have mercy on Him later (Romans 11:30-32). Its for His purpose.

Even the English translations we have are slightly corrupted versions of the scriptures. This is part of the delusion on this world that God HAS ALLOWED. For example 2 Cor 6:2 is not speaking about "THE" day of salvation but only "A" day of salvation. Check the Greek. Its not the only day to be saved. God's purpose is to save us all and it is not limited to this life - it is only man's tradition that says this. It is man's tradition that nullifies the meaning of the gospel and turning it into a nightmare for many.

So Latte, can you at least see that scripture tells us many of the people in the world are confused and deceived and are completely lost, and God intends them to be this way? Don't give me that "He intended us all to be perfect and makes it all perfectly clear"... why does God send lying spirits out then? Why did Jesus speak in parables so we would not understand? Why allow Satan to deceive the world? The reason is: God is revealing His plan slowly so only a few will understand initially and then the rest will understand later. This will teach us all humility and let us experience evil so we will understand how to be good. If all understood immediately, we would not get the experience of evil that is necessary to humble us so we can then be made in God's image.

And one final note: we don't have true free will... but that's for another post! But belief in free will is a big stumbling block for many understanding the truth.

Be well Latte... sorry for the long post, hope you read and consider it.
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