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The response that I would give to parents is that when children become adults, they use lawyers to fight their battles when they themselves cannot. That is what lawyers are for; the civilized resolution of disputes.I cannot tell you how many times I run into clients where the other side is simply a bully.
That is very true. But unfortunately, the cost of hiring a lawyer seriously limits the situations where you can realistically a hire a lawyer to fight your battles.
I am not only talking about bullying situations. Society provides that in general courts are available to resolve disputes in a peaceful manner where the parties cannot. In some cases one can proceed without a lawyer. Most lawyers also have to perform a certain amount of pro bono services for people who cannot afford counsel. But any parents who give a "life lesson" to the effect that one can always fight their own battles without engaging a neutral and/or an authority figure are just plain wrong.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
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Originally Posted by jbgusa
This advice would work only for children say age 12 and up. My advice would be to put the bullying complaint in writing and email the complaint to the school. If that is not possible, handing it in on a piece of paper in wordprocessed paper would work just fine. Schools tend to respond when things are in writing because they realize that the issue could be a monumental headache later.
In other words, the schools would understand that the "go along to get along" posture will blow up in their face. I strongly suggest that any child planning on doing this should advise their parents that they are about to complain in writing and this may change the parents'attitude on not advocating for their children. The blowback will come to the parents.
Unfortunately, a school can just avoid the monumental headache by destroying the letter and/or deleting the e-mail. I also wouldn't be surprised if my school would have considered that to be insubordination.
Hopefully most people keep their sent emalis or copies of documents given to a school. And if the school makes a practice of destroying those without acting on them, just ask Hillary Clinton about how heavily that activity is questioned. There are two other terms that apply; "scandal" or "document spoliation."
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Bullying policies mean nothing. They are just there to give the appearance of fighting back against bullying, but without actually doing anything. If I would tell my guidance counselor about bullying, he/she would just say that there is nothing that he/she can do about it.
Totally agreed. What would work best with bullying is for teachers or others in leadership positions to quietly encourage those with strong, solid upbringings to befriend victims in a very public manner.
I have no way of knowing for sure but I suspect that when my days of being bullied came to an end at the beginning of 10th grade, the band leader of the marching band that I had just joined did exactly that. Ditto the coach of the Junior Varsity soccer team. Also, on his won someone who I am friendly with to this day 44 years later made a poitn not only of befriending me but making it known in the three activites we shared in common: 1) Weather club; 2) Social studies/European History; and 3) School newspaper. Most bullies are too cowardly to risk the wrath of other students who are both more popular and in many cases stronger as well. The latter person I mentioned was around 5'10" even in 10th grade. He was an honors student and exceedingly (physically) gentle. No one would have wanted a sucker punch from him. And on the soccer team, I was a fullback and the most conspicuous friend a goalie. He was another one who rarely fought but no on e in their right mind wanted to tangle with.
In other words what is needed with bullying is not policies but activism and imagination.
I am not only talking about bullying situations. Society provides that in general courts are available to resolve disputes in a peaceful manner where the parties cannot. In some cases one can proceed without a lawyer. Most lawyers also have to perform a certain amount of pro bono services for people who cannot afford counsel. But any parents who give a "life lesson" to the effect that one can always fight their own battles without engaging a neutral and/or an authority figure are just plain wrong.
But there are many cases where you can theoretically afford a lawyer, so you won't qualify for any pro bono services, but it is not a wise use of funds.
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Hopefully most people keep their sent emalis or copies of documents given to a school. And if the school makes a practice of destroying those without acting on them, just ask Hillary Clinton about how heavily that activity is questioned. There are two other terms that apply; "scandal" or "document spoliation."
But what recourse does a mere student have (again, I'm talking about cases where parents will not help the student) when a school deletes or ignores an e-mail, or destroys or ignores a written letter, or even suspends the student for insubordination? I honestly do not see how your idea would ever work in a real school. Or am I missing something?
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Totally agreed. What would work best with bullying is for teachers or others in leadership positions to quietly encourage those with strong, solid upbringings to befriend victims in a very public manner.
But wouldn't that "friendship" be seen as fake?
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I have no way of knowing for sure but I suspect that when my days of being bullied came to an end at the beginning of 10th grade, the band leader of the marching band that I had just joined did exactly that. Ditto the coach of the Junior Varsity soccer team. Also, on his won someone who I am friendly with to this day 44 years later made a poitn not only of befriending me but making it known in the three activites we shared in common: 1) Weather club; 2) Social studies/European History; and 3) School newspaper. Most bullies are too cowardly to risk the wrath of other students who are both more popular and in many cases stronger as well. The latter person I mentioned was around 5'10" even in 10th grade. He was an honors student and exceedingly (physically) gentle. No one would have wanted a sucker punch from him. And on the soccer team, I was a fullback and the most conspicuous friend a goalie. He was another one who rarely fought but no on e in their right mind wanted to tangle with.
In other words what is needed with bullying is not policies but activism and imagination.
For me, bullying came to an end when I started high school. I suspect it was because the people who previously bullied me ad matured.
But there are many cases where you can theoretically afford a lawyer, so you won't qualify for any pro bono services, but it is not a wise use of funds.
There are plenty of lawyers who charge relatively low rates. Myself included. But I don't do all kinds of law, and I practice only in New York.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
But what recourse does a mere student have (again, I'm talking about cases where parents will not help the student) when a school deletes or ignores an e-mail, or destroys or ignores a written letter, or even suspends the student for insubordination? I honestly do not see how your idea would ever work in a real school. Or am I missing something?
Any school that does either of those is taking a serious chance. What happens if, for example, there are some parents that do get more involved and send a copy of the deleted or shredded correspondence to a state legislator, board of education member, or Child Protective Services? I'm not saying it never happens but then again some people enjoy cliff- or bungee-jumping.
For me, bullying came to an end when I started high school. I suspect it was because the people who previously bullied me ad matured.
It was about a year later but basically similar. I went 2-8 at the same school (the school was K-8 but I moved in during 2nd grade) and our group was materially less mature thant he other four elementary schools, which merged into the Junior High School and thus wend K-5 at a small school and 6-8 at the merged school.
Any school that does either of those is taking a serious chance. What happens if, for example, there are some parents that do get more involved and send a copy of the deleted or shredded correspondence to a state legislator, board of education member, or Child Protective Services? I'm not saying it never happens but then again some people enjoy cliff- or bungee-jumping.
Again, I am talking about scenarios, such as mine, where the parent refuses to be any help.
Again, I am talking about scenarios, such as mine, where the parent refuses to be any help.
But not all parents can be safely predicted to refuse to help. Some school administrators would find themselves in serious trouble if they were thus caught destroying documents relating to bullying or anything that could endanger students.
But not all parents can be safely predicted to refuse to help. Some school administrators would find themselves in serious trouble if they were thus caught destroying documents relating to bullying or anything that could endanger students.
Again, my question was specifically about situations where parents refuse to help. I don't see what a mere student can do to put the school in serious trouble, especially given how easy it is for the school to retaliate against a student, and how little recourse the student has.
Bullying policies mean nothing. They are just there to give the appearance of fighting back against bullying, but without actually doing anything. If I would tell my guidance counselor about bullying, he/she would just say that there is nothing that he/she can do about it.
That's not the way it works here. My kids teachers have been on top of bullying and have managed to stop it although only in the school. They can't do much about the online stuff although they try here.
Again, my question was specifically about situations where parents refuse to help. I don't see what a mere student can do to put the school in serious trouble, especially given how easy it is for the school to retaliate against a student, and how little recourse the student has.
It gets frustrating when you don't follow what I say. What I am saying is that let's say out of five bullied students four have parents who do nothing and one whose parents do get involved. The "fun" starts when the parents of the one student try to find out what became of their child's complaint. Then that student can easily find out if more students complained since the students know who is being picked on. If all five complaints have mysteriously disappeared someone is in serious trouble.
It gets frustrating when you don't follow what I say. What I am saying is that let's say out of five bullied students four have parents who do nothing and one whose parents do get involved. The "fun" starts when the parents of the one student try to find out what became of their child's complaint. Then that student can easily find out if more students complained since the students know who is being picked on. If all five complaints have mysteriously disappeared someone is in serious trouble.
I still don't think that would have worked in my school during my era.
I still don't think that would have worked in my school during my era.
Now with electronic data storage loss of evidence is far more detectable.
Look, I feel your pain. One time I came home from school, I think i n 6th grade, and heard that the school called and I punched three kids in the back. My father said "I k now this news is a big blow" but they did nothing to fight the blatantly false accusation, including asking the obvious question of who I hit. But I still believe that if a child has uninvolved parents the child should learn as early as possible to make a paper trail. If the school is indeed destroying evidence it could, on a random basis, get rather "fun." The problem, as you no doubt are aware, is what I just outlined; the school blaming the victim, and sometimes making up facts to support that posture.
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