Students are punished for fighting back against school yard bully? (pay, require)

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Now with electronic data storage loss of evidence is far more detectable.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not think there is any rule requiring schools to keep or to act on every letter they receive. And, unfortunately, they can suspend a student for insubordination, and the student really has no recourse.


One thing I wonder about is, at least at schools where there are long-term consequences in addition to detention, if anybody has ever served the detention but was later able to get it expunged from their record when cooler heads prevailed.

Look, I feel your pain. One time I came home from school, I think i n 6th grade, and heard that the school called and I punched three kids in the back. My father said "I k now this news is a big blow" but they did nothing to fight the blatantly false accusation, including asking the obvious question of who I hit. But I still believe that if a child has uninvolved parents the child should learn as early as possible to make a paper trail. If the school is indeed destroying evidence it could, on a random basis, get rather "fun." The problem, as you no doubt are aware, is what I just outlined; the school blaming the victim, and sometimes making up facts to support that posture.

What do you mean by "get rather fun"?

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not think there is any rule requiring schools to keep or to act on every letter they receive. And, unfortunately, they can suspend a student for insubordination, and the student really has no recourse.

There are hearing rights. And as a lawyer I can tell you, at least in New York, destruction of a communication would be very ill advised. Also almost all schools have teacher and administrative emails on their websites, or a contact dialogue. I cannot help it if no one teaches a student (or involved parent) to put things into writing if informal resolution efforts fail.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

One thing I wonder about is, at least at schools where there are long-term consequences in addition to detention, if anybody has ever served the detention but was later able to get it expunged from their record when cooler heads prevailed.

My younger son had one in-school detention. He's graduated and that record didn't seem to hurt that much.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

What do you mean by "get rather fun"?

That was in reference to my statement "If the school is indeed destroying evidence it could, on a random basis, get rather 'fun'." Ask Hillary Clinton if she's enjoyed FBI interviews over the spoliated server.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

There are hearing rights. And as a lawyer I can tell you, at least in New York, destruction of a communication would be very ill advised. Also almost all schools have teacher and administrative emails on their websites, or a contact dialogue. I cannot help it if no one teaches a student (or involved parent) to put things into writing if informal resolution efforts fail.

I guess I should ask, what exactly is the goal of this letter?

Is the purpose just some vague tell the school to do "something" about bullying? If so, that's not likely to help, since they will either say they are "doing everything they can" about bullying, or that there is "nothing they can do" about it.

Is the purpose to get out of detention or another punishment given for standing up to a bully? If so, that is not likely to work. At least in my school, you had no "hearing rights". And the student handbook made it very clear that once detention is assigned, it will not be reversed except under extreme circumstances. In any case, the student will have served the detention long before anything could or would be done with the letter. Also, failure to report to detention was considered insubordination, which resulted in an automatic suspension, which, as I said, had other consequences, such as disqualification from any extracurricular activities. It was a punishment that didn't fit the crime, so it was in your best interest to just serve the detention, no matter how unfair.

Is the purpose to cause the bully to get detention? If so, that is also unlikely to work, sine the school will just say "they didn't see it" or "it's one person's word against another".

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

I guess I should ask, what exactly is the goal of this letter?

Is the purpose just some vague tell the school to do "something" about bullying? If so, that's not likely to help, since they will either say they are "doing everything they can" about bullying, or that there is "nothing they can do" about it.

We both agree on a few things. One is that schools are resistant to really doing much about bullying. A second is that most of the personnel at schools are too stupid or immature to come up with strategies and follow through. The schools have to be "put on the spot," in other words, be placed in a position where they have to do something. Here is one suggestion:

Originally Posted by jbgusa

What would work best with bullying is for teachers or others in leadership positions to quietly encourage those with strong, solid upbringings to befriend victims in a very public manner.

I have no way of knowing for sure but I suspect that when my days of being bullied came to an end at the beginning of 10th grade, the band leader of the marching band that I had just joined did exactly that. Ditto the coach of the Junior Varsity soccer team. Also, on his won someone who I am friendly with to this day 44 years later made a poitn not only of befriending me but making it known in the three activites we shared in common: 1) Weather club; 2) Social studies/European History; and 3) School newspaper. Most bullies are too cowardly to risk the wrath of other students who are both more popular and in many cases stronger as well. The latter person I mentioned was around 5'10" even in 10th grade. He was an honors student and exceedingly (physically) gentle. No one would have wanted a sucker punch from him. And on the soccer team, I was a fullback and the most conspicuous friend a goalie. He was another one who rarely fought but no on e in their right mind wanted to tangle with.

In other words what is needed with bullying is not policies but activism and imagination.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Is the purpose to get out of detention or another punishment given for standing up to a bully? If so, that is not likely to work. At least in my school, you had no "hearing rights". And the student handbook made it very clear that once detention is assigned, it will not be reversed except under extreme circumstances. In any case, the student will have served the detention long before anything could or would be done with the letter. Also, failure to report to detention was considered insubordination, which resulted in an automatic suspension, which, as I said, had other consequences, such as disqualification from any extracurricular activities. It was a punishment that didn't fit the crime, so it was in your best interest to just serve the detention, no matter how unfair.

Is the purpose to cause the bully to get detention? If so, that is also unlikely to work, sine the school will just say "they didn't see it" or "it's one person's word against another".

If there was something in writing it would make refusal to erase a detention from the record, or even punishing a resister to bullying in the first place far more dicey. Again, I can only speak to lawyering in New York, but paper trails are, in my experience, to paraphrase Vince Lombardi, not everything but the only thing. If the bullying victim gets hurt, or commits suicide, and there is an abundant paper trail, heads are going to roll. If not, the system will cover up for them.

Mitsguy2001, I hope that you see that I am trying to work with you rather than fight you. Can you find a way to pick out some strategy, either mine or anyone else's, that could work?

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

We both agree on a few things. One is that schools are resistant to really doing much about bullying. A second is that most of the personnel at schools are too stupid or immature to come up with strategies and follow through. The schools have to be "put on the spot," in other words, be placed in a position where they have to do something.

While I certainly agree with all that, I do feel that at least certain administrators and teachers actively try to encourage bullying. Many of them were likely former school bullies, and they connect more with them. They also likely see bullying as a way to try to force people into conformity, and as a way to toughen people up. However, it is clear that bullying fails at those tasks, but people still believe it. What annoys me is that I have a coworker who feels that being bullied in school was the best thing ever to have happened to him and that it made him a better person. I don't agree.

Here is one suggestion:

You posted that suggestion a few times. I honestly think that is a bad idea, since the bullying victim will know that the other person isn't a real friend, and will make him/her feel even worse.

If there was something in writing it would make refusal to erase a detention from the record, or even punishing a resister to bullying in the first place far more dicey. Again, I can only speak to lawyering in New York, but paper trails are, in my experience, to paraphrase Vince Lombardi, not everything but the only thing.

So your intention is to serve the detention, but then try to have it expunged from your record before other consequences (such as disqualification from extra-curricular activities) happen? Could be a reasonable compromise if a school is willing to admit that they were wrong.


Unfortunately, that will likely only happen when the administrator who assigned the punishment retires. My elementary school had a truly horrible principal who retired when I was halfway through 2nd grade. His successor was much nicer. When I was in 5th grade, in a rare case where my parents intervened, the principal agreed to expunge from my record several untrue incidents that the former principal had on my record from years earlier, so that it would not be transferred to middle school.


Also, at least in my district, middle school records were not transferred to high school. Another case where my parents intervened was in 8th grade when I was given a full day of in school suspension for standing up to a bully. My mother told the assistant principal that I was willing to serve the detention since I understand that life isn't fair, but that I am not willing to have it remain on my record that would be sent to high school. He said my record was moot since it won't be sent to high school anyway.


I never received detention in high school (though I was threatened with it), so I don't know how that would have affected me.

If the bullying victim gets hurt, or commits suicide, and there is an abundant paper trail, heads are going to roll. If not, the system will cover up for them.

That I think is a major difference between when I was in school and the current era. In my day, I never heard of bullying victims being seriously hurt or committing suicide.

Mitsguy2001, I hope that you see that I am trying to work with you rather than fight you. Can you find a way to pick out some strategy, either mine or anyone else's, that could work?

I understand. Maybe what I need to ask is, what can a student do when even your current solution fails, and/or the student is suspended for insubordination?

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

While I certainly agree with all that, I do feel that at least certain administrators and teachers actively try to encourage bullying. Many of them were likely former school bullies, and they connect more with them. They also likely see bullying as a way to try to force people into conformity, and as a way to toughen people up. However, it is clear that bullying fails at those tasks, but people still believe it. What annoys me is that I have a coworker who feels that being bullied in school was the best thing ever to have happened to him and that it made him a better person. I don't agree.

I will agree that not all teachers are the best and the brightest. I need to know a lot more before ascribing to them evil rather than stupidity.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

You posted that suggestion a few times. I honestly think that is a bad idea, since the bullying victim will know that the other person isn't a real friend, and will make him/her feel even worse.

I linked to it a history of a 44 year friendship that probably arose from such an effort, Advice on Upcoming Tense 40th High School Reunion. While relationships of that length have their ups and downs that is hardly phony. And there were others that lasted a long time where we eventually lost touch. But I totally, 100% disagree with you. Sometimes a teacher would tell me, such and such a person would be good for you as a friend.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

So your intention is to serve the detention, but then try to have it expunged from your record before other consequences (such as disqualification from extra-curricular activities) happen? Could be a reasonable compromise if a school is willing to admit that they were wrong.

In this litigious day and age very few people are willing to admit being wrong. Ameliorating the consequences is the best that's going to happen.

I had a situation come up that may tend to show some agreement with your concept that some teachers may have been former bullies but that is not the point of this particular vignette. It's about teachers' reluctance to admit someone was wrong.

I attended high school in a district that strongly encourage honors courses and AP credit, graduating in 1975. The "fireworks" though go back to my freshman year, Academic 1971-2 and in particular November 1972. At the beginning of my freshman year my father had a major operation for cancer which later turned out to be unsuccessful. I had major social and adjustment problems that particular year. A teacher we'll call "Mrs. O" was my homeroom teacher in my freshman year.

Fast forward to sophomore year, 1972-3. That year I was far better adjusted socially. In fact, Mrs. O remarked on that to my band teacher. Notwithstanding her being impressed, when she met my mother and (soon to be deceased) natural father at parent-teacher night that November, the meeting did not go well. In fact, from what I heard later they nearly came to blows, though my father was by nature a peaceful, accomplished professional. In April 1973 I sat for a written exam to get into AP History. Almost alone among the people who sat for the test, I was not admitted to the AP courses. I did take other Honors-level history in Fall 1973, Spring 1974 and Fall 1974. The Fall 1974 course was taught by the department chair, Mr. R. This is significant as the story develops. I received my early decision acceptance to Cornell just before Christmas 1974.

Spring 1975 was thus a leisurely semester. My mother suggested that I take the AP American History exam. I said "why waste the money" on the test, since I was not in the course. She said "just take it." I found the test almost ridiculously easy.

After graduation, that summer, when I returned to my local town for a summer band concert, Mr. R, the department chair, pulled me aside and said he needed to talk to me. He said "I wanted you to know, you got a '5' (a perfect score) on the AP exam, but please don't make too big a deal of it." I told my mother the good news along with the strange request "not to make too big a deal of it." My mother told me about Mrs. O's hoedown with my father, and thought he didn't want the obvious discrimination in the local paper. In any event I had no intention of spreading ill iwll in my hometown as I was leaving for college. That turned out to be a wise decision.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Unfortunately, that will likely only happen when the administrator who assigned the punishment retires. My elementary school had a truly horrible principal who retired when I was halfway through 2nd grade. His successor was much nicer. When I was in 5th grade, in a rare case where my parents intervened, the principal agreed to expunge from my record several untrue incidents that the former principal had on my record from years earlier, so that it would not be transferred to middle school.

That sounds like it accords with mine and other people's experience.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Also, at least in my district, middle school records were not transferred to high school. Another case where my parents intervened was in 8th grade when I was given a full day of in school suspension for standing up to a bully. My mother told the assistant principal that I was willing to serve the detention since I understand that life isn't fair, but that I am not willing to have it remain on my record that would be sent to high school. He said my record was moot since it won't be sent to high school anyway.

If possible I'd still like the expungement. Sometimes records that "don't follow" can be requested if there's a later problem.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

I never received detention in high school (though I was threatened with it), so I don't know how that would have affected me.

My younger son's in school detention didn't seem to have noticeable effect. He got into a college that specializes in special needs but doesn't take behavioral deficit or emotionally disturbed cases.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

That I think is a major difference between when I was in school and the current era. In my day, I never heard of bullying victims being seriously hurt or committing suicide.

That's an impact of social media to some extent. But there were suicidal thoughts of some people back in the day. Trust me on that one.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

I understand. Maybe what I need to ask is, what can a student do when even your current solution fails, and/or the student is suspended for insubordination?

Again not perfect but go to court, or consult a lawyer about court. Some statutes do allow attorneys' fees though those are far from perfect as well.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

I will agree that not all teachers are the best and the brightest. I need to know a lot more before ascribing to them evil rather than stupidity.

It depends on the teacher.

I linked to it a history of a 44 year friendship that probably arose from such an effort, Advice on Upcoming Tense 40th High School Reunion. While relationships of that length have their ups and downs that is hardly phony. And there were others that lasted a long time where we eventually lost touch. But I totally, 100% disagree with you.

Glad that worked out well in your case. Although I don't see that working all of the time.

Sometimes a teacher would tell me, such and such a person would be good for you as a friend.

The only time anybody suggested I be friends with somebody, it was somebody that she hated as much as she hated me.

In this litigious day and age very few people are willing to admit being wrong. Ameliorating the consequences is the best that's going to happen.

But the only way to expunge an offense from a permanent record is if they admit that they were wrong. You're right, they likely will not admit that they were wrong, which means they won't remove an offense from a permanent record.

I did have an incident in 6th grade where the school very clearly made a mistake. My punishment was removed because the teacher was supposedly so touched by a letter of apology that I was forced to write, against my will, to the teacher. I described that incident in Post #76 of the thread I linked to below:
What teachers liked/didnt like you in school?

I have no idea if the offense remained on my middle school record or not.

I had a situation come up that may tend to show some agreement with your concept that some teachers may have been former bullies but that is not the point of this particular vignette. It's about teachers' reluctance to admit someone was wrong.

I attended high school in a district that strongly encourage honors courses and AP credit, graduating in 1975. The "fireworks" though go back to my freshman year, Academic 1971-2 and in particular November 1972. At the beginning of my freshman year my father had a major operation for cancer which later turned out to be unsuccessful. I had major social and adjustment problems that particular year. A teacher we'll call "Mrs. O" was my homeroom teacher in my freshman year.

Fast forward to sophomore year, 1972-3. That year I was far better adjusted socially. In fact, Mrs. O remarked on that to my band teacher. Notwithstanding her being impressed, when she met my mother and (soon to be deceased) natural father at parent-teacher night that November, the meeting did not go well. In fact, from what I heard later they nearly came to blows, though my father was by nature a peaceful, accomplished professional. In April 1973 I sat for a written exam to get into AP History. Almost alone among the people who sat for the test, I was not admitted to the AP courses. I did take other Honors-level history in Fall 1973, Spring 1974 and Fall 1974. The Fall 1974 course was taught by the department chair, Mr. R. This is significant as the story develops. I received my early decision acceptance to Cornell just before Christmas 1974.

Spring 1975 was thus a leisurely semester. My mother suggested that I take the AP American History exam. I said "why waste the money" on the test, since I was not in the course. She said "just take it." I found the test almost ridiculously easy.

After graduation, that summer, when I returned to my local town for a summer band concert, Mr. R, the department chair, pulled me aside and said he needed to talk to me. He said "I wanted you to know, you got a '5' (a perfect score) on the AP exam, but please don't make too big a deal of it." I told my mother the good news along with the strange request "not to make too big a deal of it." My mother told me about Mrs. O's hoedown with my father, and thought he didn't want the obvious discrimination in the local paper. In any event I had no intention of spreading ill iwll in my hometown as I was leaving for college. That turned out to be a wise decision.

So you are saying that you were kept out of AP History because of your parents' fight with Mrs. O several years earlier?

That sounds like it accords with mine and other people's experience.

If possible I'd still like the expungement. Sometimes records that "don't follow" can be requested if there's a later problem.

Though it was clear that the assistant principal was not going to remove the in school suspension from my record. He didn't like me, and he did not consider being fair to be a requirement. Given that the record would only last a few more months, and given that it was basically my word against someone else's, it didn't seem worth pursuing it any further.

My younger son's in school detention didn't seem to have noticeable effect. He got into a college that specializes in special needs but doesn't take behavioral deficit or emotionally disturbed cases.

That's an impact of social media to some extent. But there were suicidal thoughts of some people back in the day. Trust me on that one.

I am very glad that social media did not exist when I was in school.

Again not perfect but go to court, or consult a lawyer about court. Some statutes do allow attorneys' fees though those are far from perfect as well.

How can an elementary or middle school student, obviously with no job, afford lawyers fees? Can a minor even take a school to court? Honestly, that seems like a far fetched solution.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Glad that worked out well in your case. Although I don't see that working all of the time.

It's worth spreading around so that it's part of more teachers' "best practices." That is asking peers with strong personalities and good upbringings to befriend bully victims. It may not always work but I doubt it's unique.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

But the only way to expunge an offense from a permanent record is if they admit that they were wrong. You're right, they likely will not admit that they were wrong, which means they won't remove an offense from a permanent record. I did have an incident in 6th grade where the school very clearly made a mistake. My punishment was removed because the teacher was supposedly so touched by a letter of apology that I was forced to write, against my will, to the teacher. I described that incident in Post #76 of the thread I linked to below:
What teachers liked/didnt like you in school?

I have no idea if the offense remained on my middle school record or not.

They can expunge based upon uncertainty as well. If they admit that you're right they're inviting a lawsuit. An admission by a person is admissible as evidence without the testomony of that person. Under Federal and New York rules an admission is an exception to the hearsay rules.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

So you are saying that you were kept out of AP History because of your parents' fight with Mrs. O several years earlier?

Yes. The "hoedown" was in November or maybe October 1972. The qualifying test under which I was blackballed was in April 1973. The AP course would have been givenin 1973-4 and 1974-5. I took the AP test in May or June 1975. So i was a few months, not a few years, that separated the fight from her retaliation.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

I am very glad that social media did not exist when I was in school.

My personal agenda on bullying is that schools don't generally get in volved in social media issues. I feel strongly on this issue that they really should.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

How can an elementary or middle school student, obviously with no job, afford lawyers fees? Can a minor even take a school to court? Honestly, that seems like a far fetched solution.

Statues of limitations don't run again minors under 18, at least in New York. These incidents may well become a ticking time bomb for later. Especially if the victimized student has my memory and is coherent.

[tassity22]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

Bullying victims are rarely popular. Bullies often are relatively well-liked. Also parents of bullies definitely won't listen to school authorities.

This is very true. Bullies are usually quite popular and have many "friends" and the victims of bullies are already socially isolated (quite often, although not always).

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by tassity22

This is very true. Bullies are usually quite popular and have many "friends" and the victims of bullies are already socially isolated (quite often, although not always).

I would add that a family like mine, respected and solid, would be unlikely to slash a teacher's or administrator's tires. Or attack such personnel with a bicycle chain. I don't believe I ever went to school with a weapon.