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It really is sad to see how twisted our "justice" system is. Good for all of you who did what was right for your children. Violence may not be the answer in most cases, but some people need to learn the hard way. Right now I do not have a child, but when I do, I hope that he will defend himself no matter what.
That would be a fair practice, but, unfortunately, I've never seen that happen, since school administers make it very clear that life is not fair.
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If they admit that you're right they're inviting a lawsuit. An admission by a person is admissible as evidence without the testomony of that person. Under Federal and New York rules an admission is an exception to the hearsay rules.
What do you think about that incident from 6th grade that I linked you to? Do you agree that the school realized that they were wrong, but didn't or couldn't admit to it? I find it very unlikely that any teacher was so naïve as to be so touched by an obviously forced letter of apology when I was obviously innocent.
In retrospect, perhaps the forced letter of apology was for the school district to protect themselves. If anything was to come of that (perhaps the union claiming that me being forced to do work for free was taking work away from unionized workers?), they could just say that I admitted guilt? But I had no choice. If I didn't write the letter of apology, I would have been suspended from school for 5 days.
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My personal agenda on bullying is that schools don't generally get in volved in social media issues. I feel strongly on this issue that they really should.
Schools will probably claim, whether rightfully or wrongfully (probably rightfully) that social media is outside their jurisdiction. One of the most common places for bullying was at the bus stops, since they were outside the school's jurisdiction. However, sometimes a student would take a bus other than the one they were assigned to in order to bully somebody; that they could get in trouble for.
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Statues of limitations don't run again minors under 18, at least in New York. These incidents may well become a ticking time bomb for later. Especially if the victimized student has my memory and is coherent.
Have you seriously heard of anybody suing a school because of bullying years after he/she graduated?
Have you seriously heard of anybody suing a school because of bullying years after he/she graduated?
I will respond to rest of post later. But a friend of mine, at age 28 or so, wanted to sue a former piano teacher who touched him inappropriately. In that case I had to counsel him that the statute of limitations had run, at the latest, one year after he turned 21. Intentional torts have a one year statute of limitations in New York. The latest, under then-existing law (I am not researching current law for this post) it could have started running was his 21st birthday.
I will respond to rest of post later. But a friend of mine, at age 28 or so, wanted to sue a former piano teacher who touched him inappropriately. In that case I had to counsel him that the statute of limitations had run, at the latest, one year after he turned 21. Intentional torts have a one year statute of limitations in New York. The latest, under then-existing law (I am not researching current law for this post) it could have started running was his 21st birthday.
That was a private teacher, not a public school. And that teacher did something illegal. I'm not sure what there is to gain by waiting until you are 21 to sue a public school because they did nothing to stop bullying.
I'm curious to hear your response to the rest of my post.
That was a private teacher, not a public school. And that teacher did something illegal. I'm not sure what there is to gain by waiting until you are 21 to sue a public school because they did nothing to stop bullying.
You have said rather often that your parents wouldn't intercede and that a 5th Grader would be helpless to hire a lawyer. A 21 year old, not so much.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
I'm curious to hear your response to the rest of my post.
I just got back from theater and read the linked post. I think what was done was atrocious, no question about it. I think you analyzed, to a "T," what happened; that they were making clear that right or wrong a teacher had to be obeyed, and that they knew by then you had done nothing wrong. As a lawyer I don't see, however, that under New York law at least you suffered damage other than to feelings. Under New York law the only conceivable tort would have been intentional infliction of emotional distress ("IIED"). IIED claims have an extraordinarily high bar. See, e.g. Howell v. New York Post Co., Inc. 81 N.Y.2d 115, 122, 612 N.E.2d 699, 702-703, 596 N.Y.S.2d 350, 353 - 354 (N.Y. [Court of Appeals],1993):
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Originally Posted by New York Court of Appeals
[Under Howell, In New York, a party must be able to plead, paraphrased from text to make sentence flow] “(i) extreme and outrageous conduct; (ii) intent to cause, or disregard of a substantial probability of causing, severe emotional distress; (iii) a causal connection between the conduct and injury; and (iv) severe emotional distress” in order to sustain, as a matter of law, a cause of action for intentional infliction of emotional distress.....Liability has been found only where the conduct has been so outrageous in character, and so extreme in degree, as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community (internal citations omitted).
While what happened to you was wrong, it did not descend "beyond all possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community."
As a human being, a former bullying victim, and the father of a special needs child I agree. Indeed, I once sternly lectured my older son, when the roughhousing with his younger, partially disabled brother went a bit too far, that you must "never pick on someone unless they're stronger than you." Child Protective Services was contacted as a result of my older son mentioning that lecture at school, so I understand how you feel injustice.
You have said rather often that your parents wouldn't intercede and that a 5th Grader would be helpless to hire a lawyer. A 21 year old, not so much.
Though I still don't know what was done that was illegal. Nor do I see what anybody would gain. I can see it for an extreme case where a student is suicidal, but not for the more typical bullying.
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I just got back from theater and read the linked post. I think what was done was atrocious, no question about it. I think you analyzed, to a "T," what happened; that they were making clear that right or wrong a teacher had to be obeyed, and that they knew by then you had done nothing wrong.
Do you agree that the letter of apology was so that they would have on record that I admitted to doing something wrong in case the situation was to be escalated somehow? Otherwise, what is the purpose of forcing a letter of apology when the person forced to write the letter is obviously not remorseful? Dazzleman thinks it was just to waste my time and keep me from doing something more fun. But if that was the case, wouldn't they have just given me detention, and/or required me to write something 100 times?
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As a lawyer I don't see, however, that under New York law at least you suffered damage other than to feelings. Under New York law the only conceivable tort would have been intentional infliction of emotional distress ("IIED"). IIED claims have an extraordinarily high bar. See, e.g. Howell v. New York Post Co., Inc. 81 N.Y.2d 115, 122, 612 N.E.2d 699, 702-703, 596 N.Y.S.2d 350, 353 - 354 (N.Y. [Court of Appeals],1993):
While what happened to you was wrong, it did not descend "beyond all possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community."
It might not have been anything illegal, but there were other cases where the union complained that students were taking work away from unionized workers. Not illegal, but given how much power the union has, they just cave in to what the union wants. Did it perhaps requiring me to do work for no pay violate any laws? Or what about child labor laws? Even if it didn't violate any laws, perhaps the school was fearful, and wanted to force me to write the letter of apology so that there would be a written confession.
What would you have done in my case? Write the letter of apology (fairly trivial, but could be taken as an admission of guilt), or accept the 5 day suspension (which would also have other consequences, such as being banned from extracurricular activities, disqualification from honor roll, and probably ineligibility for honors classes)? I know you will say I should have "talked to a lawyer", but I was in 6th grade, my parents were unwilling to help, so that was not a real option.
Why do you think I was still not allowed to use the computer room for the rest of the week? Again, I think that in order to avoid admitting that they were wrong, they had to keep some minor punishment on the books, and they assumed that given what I had been through, I was unlikely to fight that punishment.
Do you also agree that my guidance counselor saying that there was "nothing he can do" was not a valid response. While I understand that the assistant principal was higher in authority than him, and that a guidance counselor can't override an assistant principal, I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't have requested a meeting with all involved parties. The worst the assistant principal could have said was no.
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As a human being, a former bullying victim, and the father of a special needs child I agree. Indeed, I once sternly lectured my older son, when the roughhousing with his younger, partially disabled brother went a bit too far, that you must "never pick on someone unless they're stronger than you." Child Protective Services was contacted as a result of my older son mentioning that lecture at school, so I understand how you feel injustice.
Though I still don't know what was done that was illegal. Nor do I see what anybody would gain. I can see it for an extreme case where a student is suicidal, but not for the more typical bullying.
Illegality is not an issue. Suspensions, detention or restrictions are civil matters but parties still have rights. While I have not researched it the trampling of those rights may be a tort.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Do you agree that the letter of apology was so that they would have on record that I admitted to doing something wrong in case the situation was to be escalated somehow?
Quite probably. That is why as a lawyer I have trouble with apologies, unless limited to failing to hold a door open for someone.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
What would you have done in my case? Write the letter of apology (fairly trivial, but could be taken as an admission of guilt), or accept the 5 day suspension (which would also have other consequences, such as being banned from extracurricular activities, disqualification from honor roll, and probably ineligibility for honors classes)? I know you will say I should have "talked to a lawyer", but I was in 6th grade, my parents were unwilling to help, so that was not a real option.
You probably did the right thing. I am not an advocate for getting lawyers involved where a continuing relationship with admittedly obnoxious and insensitive people is required. My point about law was and is that things such as bulling should be put in writing for other reasons. Let's say the bully winds up seriously decking someone? If the files are thick with complaint letters teh school may have a problem. There are ways to be pro-active without lawyering up.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Why do you think I was still not allowed to use the computer room for the rest of the week? Again, I think that in order to avoid admitting that they were wrong, they had to keep some minor punishment on the books, and they assumed that given what I had been through, I was unlikely to fight that punishment.
I happen to think that teachers and administrators spend too much time around children and begin acting like their charges. Much like the teacher who blackballed me from getting into AP history.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Do you also agree that my guidance counselor saying that there was "nothing he can do" was not a valid response. While I understand that the assistant principal was higher in authority than him, and that a guidance counselor can't override an assistant principal, I see absolutely no reason why he couldn't have requested a meeting with all involved parties. The worst the assistant principal could have said was no.
I agree that convening a meeting should have been done, from what you have posted.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Why was CPS contacted for that?
My older son wore a tee shirt from a school from which the principal had a disagreeable termination. That principal was looking for issues from the get-go. The excuse was that the lecture "scared" my son, though when he found out about the CPS report he was aghast. In fact when he was being interviewed they wrote up "put on the stairs" as "pushed down the stairs." Something, trust me, I would never do.
Illegality is not an issue. Suspensions, detention or restrictions are civil matters but parties still have rights. While I have not researched it the trampling of those rights may be a tort.
I had said in a previous post (maybe the other thread?) that I was coerced into writing the letter of apology, since failure to write it would have resulted in being suspended for 5 days (meaning, being denied access to 5 days of education that my parents were paying taxes for, and I was legally entitled to and required to attend, since I was under 16) and inelligibility for extracurricular activities (which my parents were paying taxes for) for the rest of the year. You said that the law didn't agree with me there.
I guess the question is: is due process legally required to suspend a student from school? If so, then by writing the letter of apology, it would have been taken as an admission of guilt, and would have presumably met the legal definition of due process, even though I was coerced. But then if I refused to write the letter, I would have been suspended without due process. But it seems I would have had no recourse until I was 18. So I would have suffered for the rest of that year, and perhaps future years (if I was blocked from taking honors classes), so I don't really see the point.
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Quite probably. That is why as a lawyer I have trouble with apologies, unless limited to failing to hold a door open for someone.
You probably did the right thing.
Here you contradicted yourself, unless I am reading it wrongly. You first said that you have trouble with apologies (presumably you are especially referring to a forced apology by somebody who is asserting his innocence), but then you said that I did the right thing by writing the letter of apology. I am guessing that what you meant was that I did the right thing by writing the letter of apology, given that the penalty for refusing to write it would have been far greater than the penalty to admitting guilt to something I didn't do.
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I am not an advocate for getting lawyers involved where a continuing relationship with admittedly obnoxious and insensitive people is required.
Yes, since, at all costs, you need to avoid making enemies with such people, rather than proving that you are "right".
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My point about law was and is that things such as bulling should be put in writing for other reasons. Let's say the bully winds up seriously decking someone? If the files are thick with complaint letters teh school may have a problem. There are ways to be pro-active without lawyering up.
I happen to think that teachers and administrators spend too much time around children and begin acting like their charges. Much like the teacher who blackballed me from getting into AP history.
That is a very good point.
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I agree that convening a meeting should have been done, from what you have posted.
While I realize that such a meeting would have resulted in the "life isn't fair" response or the "I have to believe the teacher" response from the assistant principal and a "there is nothing I can do" response from the guidance counselor and the other teacher involved, in the long term, it could have impact. If everybody who received an unfair punishment requested a meeting, the assistant principal would be sick of such meetings, and would perhaps avoid unfair punishment to avoid such meetings.
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My older son wore a tee shirt from a school from which the principal had a disagreeable termination. That principal was looking for issues from the get-go. The excuse was that the lecture "scared" my son, though when he found out about the CPS report he was aghast. In fact when he was being interviewed they wrote up "put on the stairs" as "pushed down the stairs." Something, trust me, I would never do.
That sounds ridiculous. Seems both of our schools had some truly screwed up administrators.
I had said in a previous post (maybe the other thread?) that I was coerced into writing the letter of apology, since failure to write it would have resulted in being suspended for 5 days (meaning, being denied access to 5 days of education that my parents were paying taxes for, and I was legally entitled to and required to attend, since I was under 16) and inelligibility for extracurricular activities (which my parents were paying taxes for) for the rest of the year. You said that the law didn't agree with me there.
I don't know the laws in your state and as you said applying the law is probably impractical. See more below.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
I guess the question is: is due process legally required to suspend a student from school? If so, then by writing the letter of apology, it would have been taken as an admission of guilt, and would have presumably met the legal definition of due process, even though I was coerced. But then if I refused to write the letter, I would have been suspended without due process. But it seems I would have had no recourse until I was 18. So I would have suffered for the rest of that year, and perhaps future years (if I was blocked from taking honors classes), so I don't really see the point.
There theoretically is due process allowed, but the rights are vague and hazy. Some Supreme Court decision with almost incomprehensible language is out there somewhere. It is so vague that I am bothering to research it.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Here you contradicted yourself, unless I am reading it wrongly. You first said that you have trouble with apologies (presumably you are especially referring to a forced apology by somebody who is asserting his innocence), but then you said that I did the right thing by writing the letter of apology. I am guessing that what you meant was that I did the right thing by writing the letter of apology, given that the penalty for refusing to write it would have been far greater than the penalty to admitting guilt to something I didn't do.
What that means is that I don't like to advise writing apologies but in your case I probably would have. Sort of like my taking a guilty plea to a no-point violation and paying a $213 fine rather than risking a trial on texting. I wasn't texting but risking five points and a major bump in my insurance wasn't worth it.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Yes, since, at all costs, you need to avoid making enemies with such people, rather than proving that you are "right".
Exactly. You may need a reference or job help sometime.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
That is a very good point.
Thank you. I pray that kind of thing doesn't happen but some of these bullies, like "Bike Chain Charlie" could really hurt someone, and I would rather than someone of responsibility be held to account, not just some mentally ill sadist.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
While I realize that such a meeting would have resulted in the "life isn't fair" response or the "I have to believe the teacher" response from the assistant principal and a "there is nothing I can do" response from the guidance counselor and the other teacher involved, in the long term, it could have impact. If everybody who received an unfair punishment requested a meeting, the assistant principal would be sick of such meetings, and would perhaps avoid unfair punishment to avoid such meetings.
The point also of such a meeting is to give the victim some feeling of justice, to create healing an reconciliation.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
That sounds ridiculous. Seems both of our schools had some truly screwed up administrators.
In this case it was one principal, who only lasted a short time.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 10-17-2016 at 07:57 PM..
There theoretically is due process allowed, but the rights are vague and hazy. Some Supreme Court decision with almost incomprehensible language is out there somewhere. It is so vague that I am bothering to research it.
I remember (not at the school I attended) there was a school were, on the last day of school, some students were involved in a senior prank. The students were forced to either not graduate, or do admit fault and waive due process. I always felt that was completely ridiculous. Regardless of what the prank was (I honestly don't remember; again, it wasn't my school), nobody should be forced to waive due process. It also basically meant that the school could revoke your graduation without due process (since refusal to waive due process would result in your graduation being revoked). What would you suggest students do in that case?
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What that means is that I don't like to advise writing apologies but in yoru case I probably would have. Sort of like my taking a guilty plea to a no-point violation and paying a $213 fine rather than risking a trial on texting. I wasn't texting but risking five points and a major bump in my insurance wasn't worth it.
I would definitely agree with you, unless there is some other long-term penalty attached to pleading guilty. For example, on the Long Island forum, there was recently a poster whining about how he can't find any qualified employees; he then later said that he won't hire anybody with a less than perfect driving record; not even a not at fault accident, and not even calling AAA for roadside assistance. In a case where pleading guilty would result in being unemployable, you may have no choice but to roll the dice with the court.
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The point also of such a meeting is to give the victim some feeling of justice, to create healing an reconciliation.
Although being told that "life isn't fair", or "there is nothing I can do", or "I have to believe the teacher's word" hardly gives you a feeling of justice.
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