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Research the history of the world and you will find that whites have been enslaved in the past. The whites of today are not the people that enslaved blacks, neither are they the ones that kept blacks poor and disenfranchised. Check out the poverty levels in America today, and you will find that many whites are poor. Do they deserve special treatment, or is that only reserved for poor blacks? Also, blacks claim they want to be treated equally, yet you ask for reparation or to be given special consideration because of your race. That is not equal. What about Native Americans? What about the Irish people and their descendants? Many people received unfair treatment at one time. The Chinese are another example. We could go on and on. White women were severely mistreated too. Today is a new day. Everyone should be treated fairly, but everyone should be treated the same. Do white men of today owe me because of what white men of long ago did to white women? I don't think so. Today's white men had nothing to do with it. Live in today not the past.
I am well educated on the history of HUMANKIND. All this knowlege is integrated into everything I say......Any group that expereinced with black people have experienced, in degree and or kind, that group would be in the same situation that black people are in today, relative to the time in which it occured. What are you arguing....that whites went through the same thing YET did much better than blacks is getting over it? Again...there is ALWAYS an implicit assumption of white superiority born from the collarary of black inferiority. If people had our experience....they would be in the same boat or would have been in the same boat at a comparable juncture in that history.
No one is suggeting that the people who oppressed blacks are the same people that are alive today. What I am saying is that blacks alive today are still GREATLY impacted from the racism of yesterday....not to mention that racism still exist today in mutated form.
What you don't respect is this: If someone is starving someone who is not starving has no standing in arguing that a meal for the starving is "junk food". Would you just rather they starved to death until they found a well balanced meal? Starving people cannot be choosy.
I don't think you have the faintest idea what I respect or not, you've made that much clear already.
If you really believe this, then why on earth did you start a thread on a debate forum? To have black only replies? To lecture us ignorant white folks?
And if someone is starving and I'm not, but the starving makes a post on a forum about the grave injustice in his starvation and malnutrition, I think I'm in every way entitled to post my opinion and thoughts on how he can get out of his unfortunate situation.
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
What you also don't seem to grasp is that what is being denigrated is the "essence" of the African phenotype, with a few exceptions, relative to the European phenotype. You are caught up on "Color", but it runs much deeper than that.
Then by all means, share, because what you say I don't seem to grasp is something you've barely mentioned at all in this thread, you've consistently only referred to it as blacks yourself.
What African phenotypes, specifically is under attack on a deeper level than the skin colour?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
I watched my little daughter, with tears in her eyes, getting ready for school in the morning, wanting her hair to be long like the hair of the white girls at her school. I listened to her saying that a cetain dress would look better on her is "she were white". She was about 5 years old when going through that stage. It was a constant drama each morning my wife had to get her ready for school. It was obvious that her problem was with her AFRICAN features. My wife and I are very dark African Americans....and so is our daughter. How you think that such children can learn to feel good about themselves without FIRST learning to appreciate that which makes them feel "inferior"......I am dumfounded.
I think there's a big difference between teaching your kid that she's equal to anyone and sending her to a black only school. Again though, what I don't understand is the reason to feel good about oneself because of ones African features (previously you've merely referred to this as black pride), just as I don't understand pride based on European features, it doesn't make sense to me, my features and colours do not define who I am, other than that I'll just refer to my older posts.
What I've repeatedly debated, as in the thread name, is afrocentric schools. Which I think lead to segregation, not and polarization, instead of enlightenment and progress. I've also specifically stated that I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if, with time, it becomes evident that it's a positive.
What you seem to be arguing is that as a white person I have no right to have an opinion on the matter, on a public debate forum, simply because I'm not black. If that indeed is your opinion, I doubt you personally will ever see any true decline of racism, but I'm also confused as to why you'd make a post in the first place. Why promote a debate you're not interested in?
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant
You seem to be suggesting that black learning to have a natural self respect for what they look like is "bad" or not the best way to achieve self esteem. Unless you have been in a similar situation....you are not qualified to know. Now, when implementing self respect one has to be careful not to go overboard. The goal is to see yourself and your natural features as just as good as any other group.......but not as superior. If my daughter says anything that tilts towards looking down on other people....we correct her as quickly as we correct her about looking down on herself. My daoughter is 7 now and has a healthier view of herself. When she used to only play with the white kids, she now plays mostly with black kids. Now we encourage her that she should befriend all kinds of kids....and invite them over to play. However, the first business of order was and is for her to have a healthy respect for who and what she is.....which is AFRICAN.
I'm not suggesting it's bad to have a natural self respect for what one looks like, I'm saying that I don't think the ideal approach is to focus primarily on how dark ones complexion is (and any other traits). In the case of your daughter I would ask questions and talk about why she felt that way, get to the bottom of it, and try to instill a sense of self worth and self esteem for who she is regardless of colour.
And whether I've been in a similar situation or not, I doubt you'd actually try and understand me anyway, as you seem quite set in your mind about my history and my opinions.
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Now, when implementing self respect one has to be careful not to go overboard. The goal is to see yourself and your natural features as just as good as any other group.......but not as superior.
I completely agree with that, but I'd personally try not to focus too much on the group generalizations. What I've consistently said is that I don't understand nor think that pride, based on colour and traits is something that will bring forth equality. I think the "us vs. them" mentality is one major hurdle that needs to be climbed, and we can only do so one person and one family at the time. That's what I'm trying to do, you obviously have a different approach and idea, but that's generally how you debate.
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However, the first business of order was and is for her to have a healthy respect for who and what she is.....which is AFRICAN.
...And that beautifully sums up our different viewpoints.
1.One who says truths that people HATE to hear....creating division between the righteous and the unrightous.
2. Truth speaker.
Actually, as used in my post, here is THE definition.
noun
a propagandist who seeks to provoke hatred and prejudice
That is exactly what you seek to do, with every thread you create in this forum. Were there a consistency in moderation, you would have been given the boot long ago for your racism and skewed views and degrading way of interacting with others. You can't post a real argument for your side, nothing but vagueness and lies, along with hate mongering towards whites. Your argument holds no water with todays society. The society at present is NOT responsible for the way blacks act and behave, at this point, they are a product of their own denigration and behavior. Everyone else is held responsible for their actions, yet you don't think that poor, crime ridden blacks should be. That is the very basis of every skewed argument you make. This thread has done nothing more than further the swirling of this great debate forum down the toilet, and I refuse to allow myself to get dragged into any more of your pedantic BS.
I am well educated on the history of HUMANKIND. All this knowlege is integrated into everything I say......Any group that expereinced with black people have experienced, in degree and or kind, that group would be in the same situation that black people are in today, relative to the time in which it occured. What are you arguing....that whites went through the same thing YET did much better than blacks is getting over it? Again...there is ALWAYS an implicit assumption of white superiority born from the collarary of black inferiority. If people had our experience....they would be in the same boat or would have been in the same boat at a comparable juncture in that history.
No one is suggeting that the people who oppressed blacks are the same people that are alive today. What I am saying is that blacks alive today are still GREATLY impacted from the racism of yesterday....not to mention that racism still exist today in mutated form.
???? Obviously, you are convinced that everything you say is right, and that everyone else is wrong. You do not answer the questions you are asked; you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Your vast knowledge of humankind is lacking or you would know that other groups have gone through as much oppression as the black race, but have managed to move on while remembering their history. What about the Jewish people of America? You also totally ignored the Native Americans, the Chinese, white women, and the Irish. I guess the injustices these groups suffered were nothing. I just don't understand why you would think how your daughter looks should be what she focuses on. Shouldn't she focus on who she is and her accomplishments as a human? Looks fade and they are just the shell that we occupy. They are not who we are. If you don't think people should be judged based on color, then don't do it yourself. Yes, your daughter should be proud of being black, but more importantly she should be proud of the young woman she is.
.... Let me ask you this: Why is it so important to have pride in your colour?
Are you kidding me???????? We as African Americans need to have pride in our color/race/ethnicity because there are so many influences in this society that say....you can be better if ( fill in with any of hundreds of ways to make ones self more eurocentric).
The bigger question is why are people so offended by black children being nurtured? Why is it wrong for a black child to go to a school where they are taught about their culture?
When a black person such as myself who has been in majority white schools then gone to schools with a richer African American experience ( also on the college level, two HBCUs and 1 majority school) why is it that when I say there is a difference in the experience and that it is good for children to be emersed in their culture, WHY DO WHITES GET OFFENDED????
Having pride in my race does not mean that I hate other races, it means that regardless of the opinions of others about my race I know that I deserve as much respect, love, equality as anyone else.
I don't think you have the faintest idea what I respect or not, you've made that much clear already.
If you really believe this, then why on earth did you start a thread on a debate forum? To have black only replies? To lecture us ignorant white folks?
And if someone is starving and I'm not, but the starving makes a post on a forum about the grave injustice in his starvation and malnutrition, I think I'm in every way entitled to post my opinion and thoughts on how he can get out of his unfortunate situation.
Then by all means, share, because what you say I don't seem to grasp is something you've barely mentioned at all in this thread, you've consistently only referred to it as blacks yourself.
What African phenotypes, specifically is under attack on a deeper level than the skin colour?
I think there's a big difference between teaching your kid that she's equal to anyone and sending her to a black only school. Again though, what I don't understand is the reason to feel good about oneself because of ones African features (previously you've merely referred to this as black pride), just as I don't understand pride based on European features, it doesn't make sense to me, my features and colours do not define who I am, other than that I'll just refer to my older posts.
What I've repeatedly debated, as in the thread name, is afrocentric schools. Which I think lead to segregation, not and polarization, instead of enlightenment and progress. I've also specifically stated that I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if, with time, it becomes evident that it's a positive.
What you seem to be arguing is that as a white person I have no right to have an opinion on the matter, on a public debate forum, simply because I'm not black. If that indeed is your opinion, I doubt you personally will ever see any true decline of racism, but I'm also confused as to why you'd make a post in the first place. Why promote a debate you're not interested in?
I'm not suggesting it's bad to have a natural self respect for what one looks like, I'm saying that I don't think the ideal approach is to focus primarily on how dark ones complexion is (and any other traits). In the case of your daughter I would ask questions and talk about why she felt that way, get to the bottom of it, and try to instill a sense of self worth and self esteem for who she is regardless of colour.
And whether I've been in a similar situation or not, I doubt you'd actually try and understand me anyway, as you seem quite set in your mind about my history and my opinions.
I completely agree with that, but I'd personally try not to focus too much on the group generalizations. What I've consistently said is that I don't understand nor think that pride, based on colour and traits is something that will bring forth equality. I think the "us vs. them" mentality is one major hurdle that needs to be climbed, and we can only do so one person and one family at the time. That's what I'm trying to do, you obviously have a different approach and idea, but that's generally how you debate.
...And that beautifully sums up our different viewpoints.
The debate is indeed open to anyone. What I am saying is that you have a strong opinion without a strong foundation in understanding. I would not assume that I could tell a women, who may have been conditioned to believe that women are intellectually inferior to men, that it makes no sense to refute that by inspiring confidence in the ability of women. You should not have such a staunch position about something you have not experienced…..ie….feeling inferior because of your race. Now, at women point in time women were not allowed suffrage and many were kept out of certain occupations based upon perceptions of men that the nature of a women rendered them unqualified. So what did that inspire? Women being put down inspired….THE WOMENS MOVEMENT to affirm women and to motivate women to believe that WOMEN can do the things that men can do as well. I never heard anyone say….”well, is it not counterproductive to boost the image of a gender? Why do women need to focus on gender….in correcting gender inequality and the women thinking they are not good enough”. It just seems to me that people, white people, are always criticizing black people. No matter what goes on and no matter how keenly obvious it is, it is flipped around back on us. We are the problem……why do you need to take pride in your race just because your race was denigrated for centuries as less than human. Why do you need to build your race from that inferior perception of yourself? Why can’t you just stop focusing on race….even though you feel inferior because of your race?
The flaw with many people is this ideal that acknowledging the social construct of “Race”….is the problem and hence people should be color-blind. Wrong. Unless one is color blind or totally blind, they will notice that people look different. That is the gift of our senses. The problem, the real problem, is when people interpret one race to be better than the other race. I am always going to notice how a person looks. It’s simply absurd to imply that we should not notice color, because that what sight allows. There is nothing wrong with whites having pride in being white or noticing that a person is a different color. The PROBLEM is when they assume that the other color is inferior to their own. When whites get together for white pride, it’s to promote the doctrine of their superiority over others. White pride does not come without HATE. You cannot judge black pride by projecting from the phenomenon of white pride because black pride is not about hate, but rather, restoring a level of dignity and humanity to black people as a result of being denigrated and oppressed based upon our race.
At the risk of repeating what has already been said, it is ridiculous to have schools that promote one culture over another. White people are not allowed to promote our culture because when we do we are labeled as racist. It is ok for blacks to have the Ebony Awards, Miss Black America, and Black Entertainment Television. Imagine if there were the Ivory Awards, Miss White America, and White Entertainment Television? Think of the riots. Also, how about the National Merit Scholarships? There are scholarships with lower qualifications just for hispanic and black students. Why is that? There is not one with lower standards just for white students. These are just a few examples of racism practiced freely in America. I am tired of it. Everyone today is born with the ability to become anything you want to be. Get out and work for what you want, rather than expecting to be handed everything. I am white and was born with nothing. I managed to work hard and do well. No one gave me anything, and I did not feel entitled to a free ride. Some one said the people that had benifited the most from Affirmative Action were white women...that is a crock. You need to show statistics to back up your claim.
Black exclusion in American society started the day the first African stepped off the slave ship nearly 500 years ago. Forty or fifty years of legislation can not and does not erase the notion to many Whites (who benefitted and profitted from Black labor) of their belief in Black inferiority. The majority of Blacks in America today are unfortunately the descendents of sons snd daughters of Africa whom America didn't even acknowledge as 100% human beings - they were "property". That legacy can not be erased in 40 years.
Also, regarding "White people don't have scholarships" - I have posted numerous times about the scholarships that are available specifically for White students. The fact of the matter is that White people are so busy voicing their anger over the "scraps" that Black people get that they don't bother to do the work and research sources for their own benefit.
There are so many other scholarships out there for White students - this was pulled from a 1 minute Google search. It never ceases to amaze me that so many Whites are ignorant to things that can benefit them yet believe they are experts on what "other people" are gaining.
Are you kidding me???????? We as African Americans need to have pride in our color/race/ethnicity because there are so many influences in this society that say....you can be better if ( fill in with any of hundreds of ways to make ones self more eurocentric).
The bigger question is why are people so offended by black children being nurtured? Why is it wrong for a black child to go to a school where they are taught about their culture?
When a black person such as myself who has been in majority white schools then gone to schools with a richer African American experience ( also on the college level, two HBCUs and 1 majority school) why is it that when I say there is a difference in the experience and that it is good for children to be emersed in their culture, WHY DO WHITES GET OFFENDED????
Having pride in my race does not mean that I hate other races, it means that regardless of the opinions of others about my race I know that I deserve as much respect, love, equality as anyone else.
THANK YOU!!!
I think whites PROJECT from what is true of them and assume its true for us....when its something negative (but they don't do this when its something positive...like working hard or being personally responsible). You cannot find a white pride rally without a swastikas and other signs of hate. White people don't seem to be able to process that black pride, unlike white pride, is not also synonemous with hate. When blacks do things its to restore our humanity and equilibrium with with other humanity. Whites are already on the top of the world....they run and control most everything directly or indirectly through capitalism or the military. We are just trying to get our piece of the pie as well as our dignity....however, the only way whites can stay on the top is to stay above other and given history.....I can't help but to think that is why they resist the rise of blacks. If we all become equal....then they cannot enjoy the feeling of being.....superior.
[quote=starsfalling;14200210] Shouldn't she focus on who she is and her accomplishments as a human? /quote]
You make assumptions w/out knowledge.
I am a black woman, I am successful career wise, multiple degrees and currently working on a doctorate, I own my car and my house. I get rude and racist comment regularly, no offense to Alabama but that is where I currently am and it seems to be the norm, black = less than. I recently had to find a new doctor b/c I had one who insisted on speaking down to me, I stopped him, let him know that I was educated, cited a few publications for him about the information that was asking him details on (medication he felt was out of my price range)... I have story after story like this.
I tell you this to say while your reasoning sounds like it should be what is important, it is not reality. I was sheltered as a child, had now idea racism existed really and I got a rude awakening as a young adult when I found out that some people do judge you by the color of your skin!
You want someone to cite a quantitative difference to you about why other races who have been oppressed do not carry the same type of emotional baggage as African americans....I can't answer that, I don't know why there is a difference, all I can do is tell you my experiences and my feelings and tell you that these experiences and feelings are shared by many African Americans.
Do my experiences not exist just because you don't understand how they could exist?
Are you kidding me???????? We as African Americans need to have pride in our color/race/ethnicity because there are so many influences in this society that say....you can be better if ( fill in with any of hundreds of ways to make ones self more eurocentric).
The bigger question is why are people so offended by black children being nurtured? Why is it wrong for a black child to go to a school where they are taught about their culture?
When a black person such as myself who has been in majority white schools then gone to schools with a richer African American experience ( also on the college level, two HBCUs and 1 majority school) why is it that when I say there is a difference in the experience and that it is good for children to be emersed in their culture, WHY DO WHITES GET OFFENDED????
Having pride in my race does not mean that I hate other races, it means that regardless of the opinions of others about my race I know that I deserve as much respect, love, equality as anyone else.
I'm not offended at all.
I just don't personally think it's a good way to go about it, to give some background, I'm also very skeptical of religious schools etc. as well.
I don't think segregating ultimately leads to less racism or bigotry, if anything it feeds it, and though I do understand your point (...to a point ) I think it will only breed more polarization and hatred.
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) I think it will only breed more polarization and hatred.