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Old 02-02-2011, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Mountain Home, ID
1,955 posts, read 2,894,106 times
Reputation: 2403

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHAdams View Post
Bullcrap. Most predators largely live off of the young who can not keep up with the herd when the predators charge. You are living in the fairy tale land of the typical environmentalist.
Now that's a bunch of bullcrap. Young animals are only available as an easy food source for a short time in the spring. Or are you claiming the elk calve all year long?
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:39 PM
 
540 posts, read 1,066,289 times
Reputation: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagicre View Post
Yes! Animal rights = human rights! You got a problem that I think we all have the same rights on this planet? Well, I do and I don't think that is sad or ridiculous.
So no doubt a wolf should respect the "human" rights of other animals by not eating them? Or at least not killing them and leaving their carcass on the ground to rot, right? And if they violate such "rights?" We execute humans who do such, or at least put them away for a very long period of time.

I take it you'd be fine with anthropomorphocizing animals "laws?" (eg death penalty for wolves for violating the "human rights" of sheep or elk.) No???

Or how about animalizing human laws and rights? For instance, if I'm a human and want to teach my children to kill, I should be allowed to kill in the name of educating my children? I mean, wolves do it. And they'z got rights. And what shouldn't I be allowed to kill? It's fine for me to blow away 20 bald eagles and leave them on the ground to teach my kids to hunt? or humans? crows? Wolves eat each other. Should I be able to teach my children to kill other humans to feed themselves other humans if they need to eat them down the line? eat other humans? Why don't I have the rights that wolves do?

I can't say I have a problem with you holding your beliefs so long as you don't attempt to force them upon sane individuals through legislation. I find them kooky and entirely illogical, though. To begin with, I can't name a single species who remotely begins to respect the idea of "rights" or "freedoms" with the exception of humanity (and we do a pretty lousy job of it). There are a limited number of species that seem to hold a deeper interpersonal bond than others. Elephants, for instance. Dogs being another. But they don't respect any sort "rights." That is unique to man.

To apply the concept of "rights" to those incapable of conceiving of such is fallacy and fraught with contradictions. It's wholly untenable.

I get some people saying that nature has its place, and we should respect it. I get that perspective. I differ from it slightly and would argue that humanity has a right to optimize its surroundings in a way that preserves our heritage, culture, possessions, and land. If that can be done economically and realistically while respecting wildlife, great. That hasn't been a problem with elk at all. Wolves, however, are an entirely different matter. It's not as if they're endangered, either. There are hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.

Last edited by CMartel2; 02-02-2011 at 05:11 PM..
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Idahodean
21 posts, read 34,729 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistyriverranch View Post
You live in Montana?
Yes, I am fortunate. (Except for the raccoon that got into my chicken coop and went on a killing spree. Talk about killing for fun.)
But I've also slanted the odds in my favor. I keep Great Pyrenees to guard my stock and I don't just expect to live here and have no depradation. I moved into a wild area and it's up to me to keep my stock safe or not whine when I lose a few. It's personal responsibility.
Wolves don't just eat elk, btw...and I seriously doubt we'll have any kind of deer shortage. There's plenty of game out there for them.
There is a buffalo ranch a few miles from me and he's had no issues with predators. Several years ago hunters lost two pack horses to a bull moose in rut and a neighbor of mine lost her stallion to a cougar. Black bears caused us a few problems till we got our dogs.
The wolves have actually been beneficial in that they keep the pesky coyotes away.

I've seen all the articles about wolf predation. Sadly, there really aren't any articles about all the people who have no problems coexisting with predators.
Like I've said before I don't mind co existing with the wolves or other predators. However, I do want to be able to protect my property and stop wasting taxpayer money on a wolf program that has already been more than highly successful.

Misty River, I doubt you have even seen a wolf in the wild? I do hope you have more than one guard dog? One Pyrenees works great for coyotes, but if a pack of wolves come to your property your guard dog will be killed. You will need a pack of Pyrenees to defend against a pack of wolves or you will lose more than a few sheep. You come across as idealistic and I hope you don't have to learn about wolves through a bad experience like myself and so many friends have.

Where I live we have more than mere wolf sightings as we have suffered many losses because of wolves. We have 9 packs in this area. I work as a packer and in the livestock industry (40 yrs) and I have a friend that depends on sheep for a livlihood. Like you he has guard dogs. The wolves killed two of his Maremma guard dogs worth about $1,000 each. In another incident I saw the aftermath when wolves have attacked and scattered his band of his sheep. Because of a pack of wolves he lost nearly 40 lambs/ewes and the rest of the band were scattered all over the mountains. Many of them were never found or returned to the band so there was a total loss of over a 100 head (out of a band of 600) of ewe/lambs and one guard dog that night. Oh, and by the way during cleanup after the killing frenzy we documented that very few sheep had been consumed by the wolves.

The wolf reintroduction program has cost taxpayers millions & millions of dollars in the reintroduction itself, in the loss of pets/livestock, and in the cost of government trappers, agents, court rooms and lawsuits that come with the wolf package. All of the original wolf reintroduction requirements have been met and are more than successful. Idaho alone has about 100 documented wolf packs so the wolves are safe and here to stay! They no longer need protection and should be delisted so they can be managed as the Idaho Fish & Game has done so well with the cougars and bears in Idaho.

Where is the common sense in this situation? In these hard economic times let's stop this tomfoolery, save some money and let's move on...
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:20 AM
 
4,527 posts, read 6,194,971 times
Reputation: 4088
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerider45 View Post
Misty River, I doubt you have even seen a wolf in the wild? I do hope you have more than one guard dog? One Pyrenees works great for coyotes, but if a pack of wolves come to your property your guard dog will be killed. You will need a pack of Pyrenees to defend against a pack of wolves or you will lose more than a few sheep. You come across as idealistic and I hope you don't have to learn about wolves through a bad experience like myself and so many friends have.
If you can't be bothered to even read my most recent posts on this thread of my own experiences...it seems rather a waste of my time to respond to your patronizing questions.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:51 PM
 
4,527 posts, read 6,194,971 times
Reputation: 4088
I just went back and looked at the OP on this thread and realized that I've been arguing on it for nigh onto three years. I love a good dust-up but this is a bit long even for a stubborn redhead.
So as of right now, I'm officially retired from this thread. Do I get a gold watch or something?
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Pueblo, CO
466 posts, read 883,859 times
Reputation: 283
Wolves have been here for over a quarter-million years, and for most of that time there were hundreds of thousand of wolves living in this country. If they wiped out their food source by killing "just for fun" like people here in the forum try to make us believe, they would never have survived as a species. But we wiped out the wolves in the US in less than 2 centuries. The wolf has been victimized by myths and fables of such magnitude that the animal became the devil in many eyes. No creature ever has been more stigmatized by men. So what does that tell us? I don't think that any of the so called wolf hater not a lot about the animal itself, just the stigma we made up with our tales.
And here some interesting facts I found on wikipedia: from 1900-2010 114 people in America were attacked by bears, in the same time period 6 people were attacked by wolves, 2 by their own wolf pet.

" We have doomed the wolf, not for what it is, but for what we deliberately and mistakenly perceive it to be" - Farley Mowat, Never Cry Wolf
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Old 02-04-2011, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Pueblo, CO
466 posts, read 883,859 times
Reputation: 283
Here is an interesting article for people that want to know more about the wolf and not just rant about it.
http://www.defenders.org/resources/p...or_fiction.pdf
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
25,397 posts, read 16,421,770 times
Reputation: 14136
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagicre View Post
Here is an interesting article for people that want to know more about the wolf and not just rant about it.
http://www.defenders.org/resources/p...or_fiction.pdf
Defenders of Wildlife isn't exactly an unbiased (or scientific) sourcs. They are also the organization that agreed to compensate ranchers for their losses due to wolf depredation. Now that wolf introduction has been successful past anyones wildest dreams, they are refusing to fulfill their end of the bargin.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:16 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,464 posts, read 21,549,467 times
Reputation: 8440
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagicre View Post
Wolves have been here for over a quarter-million years, and for most of that time there were hundreds of thousand of wolves living in this country. If they wiped out their food source by killing "just for fun" like people here in the forum try to make us believe, they would never have survived as a species. But we wiped out the wolves in the US in less than 2 centuries. The wolf has been victimized by myths and fables of such magnitude that the animal became the devil in many eyes. No creature ever has been more stigmatized by men. So what does that tell us? I don't think that any of the so called wolf hater not a lot about the animal itself, just the stigma we made up with our tales.
And here some interesting facts I found on wikipedia: from 1900-2010 114 people in America were attacked by bears, in the same time period 6 people were attacked by wolves, 2 by their own wolf pet.

" We have doomed the wolf, not for what it is, but for what we deliberately and mistakenly perceive it to be" - Farley Mowat, Never Cry Wolf
The Native Americans controlled wolf populations for thousands of years. In parts of Alaska they used to practice "denning," where they found dens and killed the young pups.

The stats on wolf attacks are deceptive at best. Many attacks weren't officially accepted despite evidence, and who knows about all the people who've disappeared in wilderness areas over the years...

Furthermore, as wolves were so heavily hunted for much of that time period, they had more fear. When something isn't hunted it loses its fear of humans. The surge in mountain lion attacks in California after banning hunting them, is an example of that.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:19 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,464 posts, read 21,549,467 times
Reputation: 8440
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagicre View Post
Here is an interesting article for people that want to know more about the wolf and not just rant about it.
http://www.defenders.org/resources/p...or_fiction.pdf
An animal rights website. Hardly a legitimate source.
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