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Thanks for the clarification. When you mentioned they had no recourse, I wasn’t sure if you meant they “had” to come here illegally due to our “broken system” or what. Part of the problem is the coddling they receive. The guy you referenced should have been deported ages ago. They continue to receive a slap on the wrist, until they eventually maim or kill. Then, the punishment is still much too lenient.
His parents brought him here at age 4, and they alone are responsible for his illegal status.
Nobody "has" to come here.
They do get a bit of coddling, when cities (sanctuary cities) make laws to ensure that immigration status isn't checked when people commit crimes (for example, Hernandez was pulled over in Denver and Aurora (where the crash occured) and never had his status checked (both are sanctuary cities IIRC).
I wouldn't have had a problem with him being deported when he was 4, along with his parents, if they were caught breaking the law, then they should face repercussions for doing such. I do have a problem, however, with deporting somebody who is here through no fault of their own.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
In other words, they should run from their problems like cowards. How does that improve the lives of their countrymen who remain in Mexico? How will Mexico ever progress if no one has enough courage to challenge the status quo? We wouldn’t have this great nation if our citizens weren’t willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. If illegal are nebbish, they don’t deserve the rights and privileges we have in this country. If they won’t fight for Mexico, the land they love, they certainly won’t fight for the US.
Didn't many of our European ancestors "run like cowards"? Fleeing religious persecution and the like? Did them immigrating way back when do anything to improve their respective countries?
Perhaps attempts at challenging the status quo have proved futile, perhaps it's not worth dying for. I don't know. You'll have to ask them.
You do bring up an interesting point in the last sentence (perhaps unintentionally)....if they serve in the US military, should they be granted legal status?
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Originally Posted by Benicar
Should our immigration laws be designed to benefit us, or the impoverished who wish to come here? We have a selection process, and all cannot expect to be included. Perhaps if they remained in their country and postponed parenthood until they are responsible adults, and received more than a 5th grade education, they would substantially improve their chances.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
You implied a similarity exists between European immigrants and Mexican illegal aliens, as though Mexicans entering this country illegally are essentially the same as the immigrants who came here through legal channels. That was the premise of my question.
Do we not have uneducated young parents here? Why should social statuses be the sole barometer at which we judge potential Americans? If we are to judge based on these things, why are we rewarding poor/uneducated American parents with social services?
This nation's young history has a huge basis in taking on the impoverished from other nations. Why should that stop now?
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Originally Posted by Benicar
And our country isn’t?
Not to the point where you need "connections" to get any job.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
C’mon, you can’t believe that. If so, why isn’t Mexico a first-world country?
Mexico ranks 53rd on the Human Development Index, the U.S. ranks 13. Mexico isn't a third world country, contrary to popular belief.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
Yes, our middle class is shrinking due to job loss, and IMO, the problem is threefold: illegal immigration, outsourcing (China, India), and in-sourcing (H1-B, etc). Case in point, the construction industry. Prior to massive illegal immigration, construction work afforded one a middle class lifestyle. Now, illegal aliens dominate construction, and the greedy contractors are paying wages citizens received 10-15 years ago. Legitimate contractors simply can’t compete. Talk to a few “former” construction workers.
I know a former construction worker who lost his job due to the slowdown in new home building. He didn't lose his job to illegal immigrants. Construction is boom and bust, and always will be.
What provides a middle-class lifestyle is geographically specific. A construction worker would barely scrape by in Southern CA, but in rural Missouri, he would live like a king (on the same income).
American construction workers can hope that the gov't will crack down on employers that employ illegal immigrants; or they can lower themselves down to illegal immigrants' wages, (which is something they shouldn't have to do, but it beats standing on the street corner) and not demand that they be paid middle-class wages if it stands between them and a job.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
I believe the “fear” is justified. Countless employees have been replaced due to their inability to speak Spanish in an English-speaking country. If you decided to permanently relocate to a foreign country, would you expect the host country to accommodate you, or would you expect to learn their language?
Again, geographically specific. If one is going to live somewhere with a high Spanish-speaking population, then there is a chance that Spanish will be needed/desired by employers. If one doesn't like it, they can move.
Here in Denver, I've spoken Spanish ~ 5 times in 3 years. In Southern CA, I spoke it almost daily. There are "refuges" for the English speakers.
And yes, if I moved to a non-English speaking country, I would learn the language.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
I don’t believe ethnicity is an issue for most opponents of illegal immigration. Moreover, many “Hispanics” are in fact white. As a matter of fact, the majority of Hispanics responding to the last census self-identified as white. Furthermore, the 1950’s-era ended years ago. Today, one can live wherever one chooses, and interracial marriages are no longer taboo. Illegal aliens and their peddlers have manufactured an ethnic/racial component as a strategy to garner support.
I certainly hope ethnicity isn't an issue, but for many (here) it seems to be at least some consideration.
Yes, many Hispanics identify as white, technically and genetically, but many don't exhibit the same cultural attributes as typical white Americans.
The 1950's did end long ago, but the ideals remain. Today's suburbia is a good example.
Re: the bold: Many people don't believe they can live wherever they choose, otherwise we wouldn't see so many "Hispanic family looking for upper-middle class Hispanic area in Denver", "African-American woman moving to Minneapolis", "Gay couple moving to Salt Lake City, will we be accepted?" type threads. It's sad.
I'm of the belief that people should live wherever they want, no element of my race/ethnicity/social status/income/etc will stop me from living anywhere I want.
Re: interracial marriages, they are still taboo for many people, unfortunately. My grandparents freaked when my mother dated a black guy in the mid 1990s. Some of my wife's family aren't too thrilled with my Hispanic background. I have little hope for universal or widespread acceptance of inter-racial marriages.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
If we continue along our current path, we WILL fall. And, illegal immigration will be a salient factor in our demise. Now that illegal immigration has surpassed legal immigration, it has become unsustainable. While most illegals are not violent criminals, many are, and they are wreaking havoc and overwhelming our penal systems. Additionally, the presence of millions of illegal aliens has increased our welfare rolls, created school budgetary deficits, and contributed to the closure of hospitals. How can this be considered beneficial to our country?
Those things are not beneficial to our country, but getting rid of the illegals won't be a cure-all for our nation's financial woes. Again, (IMO) we have bigger fish to fry.
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Originally Posted by Benicar
The tax code doesn’t need to be revised to accommodate people who have no right to be here. If they are legal employers/employees they should have few problems.
That's a simple argument. You'd think we'd want a bigger tax base.
I thank you Benicar for your relatively civil and intelligent debate.
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Originally Posted by ArizonaBear
Try again.
If American Blacks can advance from full on Jim Crow to a having man who is 1/2 Black in the White House within 2 generations; what prevents Mexicans in Mexico from doing that same thing---------especially being that the majority of the people SoB are 'of color'?
Again, a very pedestrian understanding of Mexico (and I guess everything in general).
When did they have their last march, and are illegals in this country involved? If they are serious, they should be working on both sides of the border. We have numerous Hispanic advocacy groups in this country. Are they involved with the movements in Mexico? If not, why? You can’t exact long-term change with a handful of part-time student advocates. Real change is accomplished by those willing to remain steadfast until the objectives are met, even if it requires enduring physical harm or death.
Yes, many Europeans were uneducated. However, they had the permission of our government to be here, and they expected nothing but an opportunity. They did not have the option of either working, or receiving government assistance. It was either sink or swim. Likewise, Mexican immigrants of the past were much more appreciative of the opportunities available in this country, and they had a desire to become contributing members of this society. This included assimilation, which they accomplished because they had the will. They also did not exhibit the arrogance and sense of entitlement prevalent among Mexican illegal aliens. Times have changed, and the attitudes of illegal aliens have changed as well. Their in-your-face attitude, and their disrespectful behavior, does not endear them to many.
English language proficiency is not the issue. Although illegal aliens understandably feel no urgency to learn our language. Why should they, when Spanish is so readily available? I have a friend who is an immigrant from Bolivia, who knew not one word of English prior to entering this country (legally). Now, she is fluent. No one accommodated her. She learned the language through hard work and sheer determination.
I personally know small business owners who were forced to close because they refused to violate our laws by employing illegal aliens. They simply couldn’t compete. I also personally know construction contractors who are now bankrupt, again, because they couldn’t compete unless they employed illegal aliens. And no, the media did not cover their stories, and you won’t find their names listed under illegal immigration statistics. But it is real. I have also read countless articles involving citizens now unemployed due to illegal immigration, or those now employed because a business was raided and illegals were fired.
It isn’t easy locating credible info. I have searched and found several articles, but most were reported by organizations some would consider biased due to their anti-illegal stance. However, the problem is real, and if you speak with actual citizens, you will learn that many are suffering as a direct result of illegal immigration. Do they have tangible evidence? Probably not.
Citizens are hurting, and as a citizen of this country, I simply can’t ignore it for the sake of political correctness, or to avoid being labeled a hater. I refuse to compromise my integrity by supporting something I believe is wrong. I don’t hate illegal aliens, and I wish them no harm, but I can’t endorse their cause.
Everyone wonders why wages for jobs here in S Cal are less than the rest of the States. If you are talking labor or unskilled jobs it's directly connected to the huge volume of Illegal Immigrants here.
When did they have their last march, and are illegals in this country involved? If they are serious, they should be working on both sides of the border. We have numerous Hispanic advocacy groups in this country. Are they involved with the movements in Mexico? If not, why? You can’t exact long-term change with a handful of part-time student advocates. Real change is accomplished by those willing to remain steadfast until the objectives are met, even if it requires enduring physical harm or death.
In the abstract of "Event Analysis of Claim Making in Mexico: How are Social Protests Transformed into Political Protests", that Takeshi Wada compiled data of "1,174 popular protests between 1964 and 2000" granted this was published in 2004, so it makes sense if it stops at 2000.
I think you get my point, there is obviously political discourse in Mexico.
Neither you nor I can find evidence for illegal immigrants participating in this discourse. I would imagine that there is coordination between Mexicans here and Mexicans there. Of course you don't have anything to show either way, so probably insinuating that there is no cooridnation would be baseless.
Yes, many Europeans were uneducated. However, they had the permission of our government to be here, and they expected nothing but an opportunity.
Well not exactly. It's rosey to paint the huddles masses as liked or even tolerated by our government and society. The truth is more sorted than that.
They did not have the option of either working, or receiving government assistance. It was either sink or swim.
However, this is where racial identity comes into play. Germans from the get-go were White. Irishmen in the hinterlands and South were White, but not in places like Boston untill generally accepted. It was somewhat easier to move up the social ladder due to race in a majority of the country. There was less bias.
With that said, the reason why gov't assistance was made was in order for future generations to not endure the same thing. It was as to NOT have the mentality that you espouse.
Likewise, Mexican immigrants of the past were much more appreciative of the opportunities available in this country, and they had a desire to become contributing members of this society. This included assimilation, which they accomplished because they had the will. They also did not exhibit the arrogance and sense of entitlement prevalent among Mexican illegal aliens. Times have changed, and the attitudes of illegal aliens have changed as well. Their in-your-face attitude, and their disrespectful behavior, does not endear them to many.
Again all the current evidence points to assimilation. I don't understand why you refute or don't even acknowledge when people point out the data time and time again. Assimilation looks at the trend ACROSS generations. With that you see more Hispanics speaking English
If no assimilation were occurring then you would expect to see no MASSIVE increase in English speaking from first to second generation (literally from parents to children).
So the assumption of lack of assimilation just doesn't hold water.
English language proficiency is not the issue. Although illegal aliens understandably feel no urgency to learn our language. Why should they, when Spanish is so readily available? I have a friend who is an immigrant from Bolivia, who knew not one word of English prior to entering this country (legally). Now, she is fluent. No one accommodated her. She learned the language through hard work and sheer determination.
Well that's great for your Bolivian friend. I have a friend who tried to learn his parents language (Russian), study abroad in Russia, majored in Russian and he still makes glaring mistakes. Language, like math, is a skill it takes time. Sometimes some people need more help than others.
Again looking at the data you see that your "lack of assimilation fear" simply doesn't hold water.
I personally know small business owners who were forced to close because they refused to violate our laws by employing illegal aliens. They simply couldn’t compete. I also personally know construction contractors who are now bankrupt, again, because they couldn’t compete unless they employed illegal aliens. And no, the media did not cover their stories, and you won’t find their names listed under illegal immigration statistics. But it is real. I have also read countless articles involving citizens now unemployed due to illegal immigration, or those now employed because a business was raided and illegals were fired.
I doubt the bolded sentence. A study done by the SBA illustrates the different closure rates of small businesses, based on various assumptions. There are simply too many variables to determine success of a small business without defining the parameters and market conditions.
Given that construction has been declining since 2006 and that it is subject to volatile market conditions, it is really hard to pinpoint simply illegal immigrants.
It's easy and convient to use a scapegoat, but it's not always the truth. I've read those articles you have posted in the past. The same three themes come up, 1) lack of education, 2) shift from blue collar to a more white collar society 3) emotionality. It's hard when you lose a job. I've been there. It's worse when you are apart of the diminishing blue collar field. It's hard during these economic times (even before, for certain industries).
It isn’t easy locating credible info. I have searched and found several articles, but most were reported by organizations some would consider biased due to their anti-illegal stance. However, the problem is real, and if you speak with actual citizens, you will learn that many are suffering as a direct result of illegal immigration. Do they have tangible evidence? Probably not.
I wonder why that is? It might be because the inherent nature of being so far anti-illegal is biased. Look, I'm not "pro-illegal". Nobody here is advocating for completely open borders. You know what a commonly held belief that has little to no evidence to support it is called...a stereotype. Misinformation needs to be stopped in order to actually solve the problem. By taking a baseless claim of your friend and citing that as concrete evidence for the WHOLE, is not right. It's not good research and it sure wouldn't be good to base NATIONAL policy on that.
Citizens are hurting, and as a citizen of this country, I simply can’t ignore it for the sake of political correctness, or to avoid being labeled a hater. I refuse to compromise my integrity by supporting something I believe is wrong. I don’t hate illegal aliens, and I wish them no harm, but I can’t endorse their cause.
Nobody is "endorsing" illegal immigration. People are saying that a militant stance, one predicated more on emotion (even by YOUR own admission in this this post) is not a good stance to take. Citizens in this nation are hurting due to the social changes that have occurred over the last 60 years or so.
It's a tired subject in sociology about there being less social mobility and how the top .01% have more of a percentage of wealth and that is increasing. It's also a tired subject showing how automation in the nation's rust belt is crippling people with only a high school education. Focusing on ousting illegal immigrants has led to less than expected outcomes. Postville for example. I was shocked even. Gabriel Thompson even stated that in rural AL, that many welcomed the influx of people in a region hit by rural-urban migration (okay so I inserted one anecdotal piece...) However, a UCLA study done by Raul Hinojosa in business week showed that with all the goods and services produced and consumed by illegal immigrants it comes to a staggering $400 billion. That's a sizeable market. Much of the growth is occurring in rural states in the South. Sorry for the tangent, but my point simply is that by fostering and creating new forms of immigration this has the potential to help the nation...if done correctly. Increase the worker visas, end birthright, provide more education to all persons in the US, find a way to effectively deter illegal immigration (e-verify, once set up) and create an easier path to obtain visas (work, student, long term).
It isn’t personal. It never was.
When you don't have data, when you simply go on to pinpoint almost ALL the major problems of the United States solely on illegal immigration...yeah that's personal. Stories are great, but it doesn't always mean that the people understand the complexity of the situation...
Everyone wonders why wages for jobs here in S Cal are less than the rest of the States. If you are talking labor or unskilled jobs it's directly connected to the huge volume of Illegal Immigrants here.
Wages are WAY higher than the national average here in S.Cal. What are you talking about?
Wages are WAY higher than the national average here in S.Cal. What are you talking about?
Per cost of living? Please. Do you live with your Parents or something? Rent, housing and fuel are the highest in the Nation compared to the rest of most States. The wage comp doesn't even come close. My associates in Atlanta make the same as myself yet their costs are 1/2 what mine are. In our other office in the South it's more like a 1/3.
Per cost of living? Please. Do you live with your Parents or something? Rent, housing and fuel are the highest in the Nation compared to the rest of most States. The wage comp doesn't even come close. My associates in Atlanta make the same as myself yet their costs are 1/2 what mine are. In our other office in the South it's more like a 1/3.
You didn't mention per cost of living. You simply said that wages were low. How would I even assume that you meant in relation to cost of living? On average you make more in CA because of the high cost of living. Also what does that have to do with illegal immigrants?
They do get a bit of coddling, when cities (sanctuary cities) make laws to ensure that immigration status isn't checked when people commit crimes (for example, Hernandez was pulled over in Denver and Aurora (where the crash occured) and never had his status checked (both are sanctuary cities IIRC).
I wouldn't have had a problem with him being deported when he was 4, along with his parents, if they were caught breaking the law, then they should face repercussions for doing such. I do have a problem, however, with deporting somebody who is here through no fault of their own.
There's a fundamental difference in our perception of illegal immigration. You believe they should only be deported “if they are caught breaking the law.” In my opinion, that is akin to saying embezzlers should be prosecuted, if caught. The fact that they manage to avoid detection does not minimize the crime, nor absolve them of guilt. With the exception of children, there are no innocent parties. There are no gray areas. No if, ands, or buts, their mere presence constitutes a willful violation of the law.
While I have compassion for the children, their parents chose to live in this country illegally, and subject them to the consequences of their unlawful behavior. I feel for them as I do the children of all who choose to live outside the law. However, there are no special provisions for the children of citizen criminals. On a daily basis, those children suffer the consequences of their parents’ decisions. They are certainly not rewarded because their parents broke the law. Why should the children of illegal aliens be treated differently? The blame lies solely with the parents.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Didn't many of our European ancestors "run like cowards"? Fleeing religious persecution and the like? Did them immigrating way back when do anything to improve their respective countries?
Our illegal immigration problem is unprecedented. Therefore, there are no comparisons to be made between the European immigrants and the illegal aliens from Mexico. Moreover, we didn’t receive 10% of the citizens of one particular European country. Nor was the #2 source of revenue for said country generated through remittances received from their fleeing masses.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Perhaps attempts at challenging the status quo have proved futile, perhaps it's not worth dying for. I don't know. You'll have to ask them.
Obviously, it isn’t. But then, why should they care, when they can easily come here, work (or not), give birth to a U.S. citizen, and be rewarded for their efforts by receiving government assistance, and the undying support of many. Obviously, the suffering of their fellow citizens, and the conditions they fled, are to be ignored, not changed. As you stated, they alone can explain their behavior.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
You do bring up an interesting point in the last sentence (perhaps unintentionally)....if they serve in the US military, should they be granted legal status?
The referenced “fight for the US” was in regards to fighting to improve this country, not as a member of our military. I don’t endorse the inclusion of non-citizens in our armed forces. I certainly wouldn’t want my loved one’s life to be dependent on someone who has no allegiance to this county, and no stake in its future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Do we not have uneducated young parents here? Why should social statuses be the sole barometer at which we judge potential Americans? If we are to judge based on these things, why are we rewarding poor/uneducated American parents with social services?
This nation's young history has a huge basis in taking on the impoverished from other nations. Why should that stop now?
Yes, unfortunately, we do have many uneducated young parents. We always have, and always will. They are also generally a tax burden. Education and social status should not be the sole barometer. However, we don’t need a glut of uneducated and poor immigrants. We needed them during the Industrial Revolution, but now we must be more selective. Now, we need ingenuity. We need educated and intelligent immigrants. We don’t need an underclass to compete against our underclass.
We didn’t choose to have the poor and uneducated. However, they are citizens of this country; thus, their reliance on government assistance is irrelevant to the topic of illegal immigration. Are you suggesting we should embrace poor and uneducated foreigners, simply because we provide our own with social services? Again, our poor belong here, illegal aliens don’t. We certainly don’t need to import poverty.
While we certainly continue to help others, as evidenced by our response to the earthquake in Haiti, we are in no position to be the dumping ground for the impoverished of the world. We have been tremendously generous to illegal aliens, and now they should thank us for our hospitality, and return home. Why do we owe them anything?
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Not to the point where you need "connections" to get any job.
Are you seriously suggesting that only those with “connections” can work in Mexico?
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Mexico ranks 53rd on the Human Development Index, the U.S. ranks 13. Mexico isn't a third world country, contrary to popular belief.
Nor is it a first-world country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
I know a former construction worker who lost his job due to the slowdown in new home building. He didn't lose his job to illegal immigrants. Construction is boom and bust, and always will be.
What provides a middle-class lifestyle is geographically specific. A construction worker would barely scrape by in Southern CA, but in rural Missouri, he would live like a king (on the same income).
Yes, construction is a boom or bust, but there should be no illegal labor in the equation. The acquaintance you mentioned is one person. His experience does not mirror the experiences of others. I don’t know any victims of 9/11, but thousand did in fact die.
Geographic wage disparity and illegal immigration are two distinct phenomena.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
American construction workers can hope that the gov't will crack down on employers that employ illegal immigrants; or they can lower themselves down to illegal immigrants' wages, (which is something they shouldn't have to do, but it beats standing on the street corner) and not demand that they be paid middle-class wages if it stands between them and a job.
Why should any citizen be expected to accept wage depression created by illegal immigration? Citizens should NOT have to “lower themselves” to the level of illegal aliens. Our government needs to eliminate the job magnet by enforcing our laws.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Again, geographically specific. If one is going to live somewhere with a high Spanish-speaking population, then there is a chance that Spanish will be needed/desired by employers. If one doesn't like it, they can move.
Here in Denver, I've spoken Spanish ~ 5 times in 3 years. In Southern CA, I spoke it almost daily. There are "refuges" for the English speakers.
And yes, if I moved to a non-English speaking country, I would learn the language.
This is not geographic specific. It is a direct result of an influx of illegal aliens in the workforce and in communities. I don’t recall employers in the past requiring employees to learn Italian, German, or French. No, those immigrants had to either learn English, or be left behind, and they were here legally.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
I certainly hope ethnicity isn't an issue, but for many (here) it seems to be at least some consideration.
Yes, many Hispanics identify as white, technically and genetically, but many don't exhibit the same cultural attributes as typical white Americans.
The 1950's did end long ago, but the ideals remain. Today's suburbia is a good example.
Re: the bold: Many people don't believe they can live wherever they choose, otherwise we wouldn't see so many "Hispanic family looking for upper-middle class Hispanic area in Denver", "African-American woman moving to Minneapolis", "Gay couple moving to Salt Lake City, will we be accepted?" type threads. It's sad.
I'm of the belief that people should live wherever they want, no element of my race/ethnicity/social status/income/etc will stop me from living anywhere I want.
Yes, prejudice and racism will always exist. I live in suburbia, and we have residents from many ethnic/racial groups. My next door neighbors to the right are white, and to the left are black, and Iranians live directly across the street. I also have Asian, Hispanic, and African neighbors, without incident. As a matter of fact, when my dad passed away, my white neighbor from next door came outside when she saw the men from the funeral home carrying my dad’s body to the van. She came to console me. Later that day, she and other neighbors brought food. Some even offered to pick up relatives from the airport, or run errands. Food, cards, and flowers continued even after we laid him to rest. I will never forget their outpouring of kindness.
We will always have citizens with a preference to live among “their own.” That is not the issue. The point I was trying to make, is that legally there are no restrictions, whereas in the past there were many. Today, money tends to be a pretty good equalizer.
I agree. People should have the right to live wherever they choose.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Re: interracial marriages, they are still taboo for many people, unfortunately. My grandparents freaked when my mother dated a black guy in the mid 1990s. Some of my wife's family aren't too thrilled with my Hispanic background. I have little hope for universal or widespread acceptance of inter-racial marriages.
Again concur. We will always have members of society who oppose interracial relationships. That’s a given. You think your grandparents were bad? Well, my great-grandparents (German immigrants) disowned my grandmother for marrying a black man. They were so incensed, they didn’t even attend my grandmother’s funeral. Nor did they have any contact with their 6 grandchildren. That degree of hate is ingrained, and nothing will change it.
I admire your optimism. I hold no such hope for this world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Those things are not beneficial to our country, but getting rid of the illegals won't be a cure-all for our nation's financial woes. Again, (IMO) we have bigger fish to fry.
No, it won’t be a panacea, but it will be an improvement. We do have quite a few big fish, but we can’t ignore the elephant in the room either.
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
That's a simple argument. You'd think we'd want a bigger tax base.
What gives you the impression that legalizing illegal aliens will increase our tax base? They aren’t exactly high-wage earners. For the most part, they would pay nothing once they receive tax refunds through EIC and their numerous exemptions for their dependents. If anything, we would add more to our welfare rolls. Again, why import poverty?
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Originally Posted by David Aguilar
I thank you Benicar for your relatively civil and intelligent debate.
You’re welcome. And, thank you for your relatively civil and intelligent debate.
Why wouldn't it be? They speak the language there, they know the customs, the culture.
How can it be so much easier for them here in a country they have no right to be in, are here illegally and so must sneak around, take low paying jobs and so on? Here they don't know the language, most haven't the ability to learn it. It's common to see people who have lived here 20,30,40 years still unable to communicate at any level in English.
If American Blacks can advance from full on Jim Crow to a having man who is 1/2 Black in the White House within 2 generations; what prevents Mexicans in Mexico from doing that same thing---------especially being that the majority of the people SoB are 'of color'?
Mexico has had two pure Indian presidents. Benito Juarez and Porfirio Diaz.
Mexico is among the wealthiest nations in the world, it's middle class is actually growing, contrary to what the illegals claim.
When did they have their last march, and are illegals in this country involved? If they are serious, they should be working on both sides of the border. We have numerous Hispanic advocacy groups in this country. Are they involved with the movements in Mexico? If not, why? You can’t exact long-term change with a handful of part-time student advocates. Real change is accomplished by those willing to remain steadfast until the objectives are met, even if it requires enduring physical harm or death.
In the abstract of "Event Analysis of Claim Making in Mexico: How are Social Protests Transformed into Political Protests", that Takeshi Wada compiled data of "1,174 popular protests between 1964 and 2000" granted this was published in 2004, so it makes sense if it stops at 2000.
I think you get my point, there is obviously political discourse in Mexico.
Neither you nor I can find evidence for illegal immigrants participating in this discourse. I would imagine that there is coordination between Mexicans here and Mexicans there. Of course you don't have anything to show either way, so probably insinuating that there is no cooridnation would be baseless.
Yes, many Europeans were uneducated. However, they had the permission of our government to be here, and they expected nothing but an opportunity.
Well not exactly. It's rosey to paint the huddles masses as liked or even tolerated by our government and society. The truth is more sorted than that.
They did not have the option of either working, or receiving government assistance. It was either sink or swim.
However, this is where racial identity comes into play. Germans from the get-go were White. Irishmen in the hinterlands and South were White, but not in places like Boston untill generally accepted. It was somewhat easier to move up the social ladder due to race in a majority of the country. There was less bias.
With that said, the reason why gov't assistance was made was in order for future generations to not endure the same thing. It was as to NOT have the mentality that you espouse.
Likewise, Mexican immigrants of the past were much more appreciative of the opportunities available in this country, and they had a desire to become contributing members of this society. This included assimilation, which they accomplished because they had the will. They also did not exhibit the arrogance and sense of entitlement prevalent among Mexican illegal aliens. Times have changed, and the attitudes of illegal aliens have changed as well. Their in-your-face attitude, and their disrespectful behavior, does not endear them to many.
Again all the current evidence points to assimilation. I don't understand why you refute or don't even acknowledge when people point out the data time and time again. Assimilation looks at the trend ACROSS generations. With that you see more Hispanics speaking English
If no assimilation were occurring then you would expect to see no MASSIVE increase in English speaking from first to second generation (literally from parents to children).
So the assumption of lack of assimilation just doesn't hold water.
English language proficiency is not the issue. Although illegal aliens understandably feel no urgency to learn our language. Why should they, when Spanish is so readily available? I have a friend who is an immigrant from Bolivia, who knew not one word of English prior to entering this country (legally). Now, she is fluent. No one accommodated her. She learned the language through hard work and sheer determination.
Well that's great for your Bolivian friend. I have a friend who tried to learn his parents language (Russian), study abroad in Russia, majored in Russian and he still makes glaring mistakes. Language, like math, is a skill it takes time. Sometimes some people need more help than others.
Again looking at the data you see that your "lack of assimilation fear" simply doesn't hold water.
I personally know small business owners who were forced to close because they refused to violate our laws by employing illegal aliens. They simply couldn’t compete. I also personally know construction contractors who are now bankrupt, again, because they couldn’t compete unless they employed illegal aliens. And no, the media did not cover their stories, and you won’t find their names listed under illegal immigration statistics. But it is real. I have also read countless articles involving citizens now unemployed due to illegal immigration, or those now employed because a business was raided and illegals were fired.
I doubt the bolded sentence. A study done by the SBA illustrates the different closure rates of small businesses, based on various assumptions. There are simply too many variables to determine success of a small business without defining the parameters and market conditions.
Given that construction has been declining since 2006 and that it is subject to volatile market conditions, it is really hard to pinpoint simply illegal immigrants.
It's easy and convient to use a scapegoat, but it's not always the truth. I've read those articles you have posted in the past. The same three themes come up, 1) lack of education, 2) shift from blue collar to a more white collar society 3) emotionality. It's hard when you lose a job. I've been there. It's worse when you are apart of the diminishing blue collar field. It's hard during these economic times (even before, for certain industries).
It isn’t easy locating credible info. I have searched and found several articles, but most were reported by organizations some would consider biased due to their anti-illegal stance. However, the problem is real, and if you speak with actual citizens, you will learn that many are suffering as a direct result of illegal immigration. Do they have tangible evidence? Probably not.
I wonder why that is? It might be because the inherent nature of being so far anti-illegal is biased. Look, I'm not "pro-illegal". Nobody here is advocating for completely open borders. You know what a commonly held belief that has little to no evidence to support it is called...a stereotype. Misinformation needs to be stopped in order to actually solve the problem. By taking a baseless claim of your friend and citing that as concrete evidence for the WHOLE, is not right. It's not good research and it sure wouldn't be good to base NATIONAL policy on that.
Citizens are hurting, and as a citizen of this country, I simply can’t ignore it for the sake of political correctness, or to avoid being labeled a hater. I refuse to compromise my integrity by supporting something I believe is wrong. I don’t hate illegal aliens, and I wish them no harm, but I can’t endorse their cause.
Nobody is "endorsing" illegal immigration. People are saying that a militant stance, one predicated more on emotion (even by YOUR own admission in this this post) is not a good stance to take. Citizens in this nation are hurting due to the social changes that have occurred over the last 60 years or so.
It's a tired subject in sociology about there being less social mobility and how the top .01% have more of a percentage of wealth and that is increasing. It's also a tired subject showing how automation in the nation's rust belt is crippling people with only a high school education. Focusing on ousting illegal immigrants has led to less than expected outcomes. Postville for example. I was shocked even. Gabriel Thompson even stated that in rural AL, that many welcomed the influx of people in a region hit by rural-urban migration (okay so I inserted one anecdotal piece...) However, a UCLA study done by Raul Hinojosa in business week showed that with all the goods and services produced and consumed by illegal immigrants it comes to a staggering $400 billion. That's a sizeable market. Much of the growth is occurring in rural states in the South. Sorry for the tangent, but my point simply is that by fostering and creating new forms of immigration this has the potential to help the nation...if done correctly. Increase the worker visas, end birthright, provide more education to all persons in the US, find a way to effectively deter illegal immigration (e-verify, once set up) and create an easier path to obtain visas (work, student, long term).
It isn’t personal. It never was.
When you don't have data, when you simply go on to pinpoint almost ALL the major problems of the United States solely on illegal immigration...yeah that's personal. Stories are great, but it doesn't always mean that the people understand the complexity of the situation...
I’m glad they are protesting in Mexico. However, a few protests will not exact change. It must be an ongoing process. I could be mistaken, but I just don’t sense the urgency.
I didn’t say all of the former immigrants were tolerated. I said they had permission to be here. Big difference.
Assimilation or lack thereof, is not the issue. At issue is the fact that they are here illegally. Their rate of assimilation is debatable, and changes according to the source. Again, that isn’t the real issue.
Clearly, you will not change my mind, nor I yours. I gave you my honest opinion based on anecdotal accounts, personal experience, and empirical data. Whether you choose to believe me is entirely your prerogative. Take care.
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