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Old 08-20-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Since likely 90% or more of the Jews in the US are not Chasidic, I think it's safe to assume that only 10% of that 1.7% of Jews in prison are Chasids. That would make the total population of the US jail system comprised of .0017% Chasidic Jews (somebody check my math, please).

Just in general, it's also interesting to see that Jews make up roughly 3% of the US population but only 1.7% of the Federal prison system. It seems even my non Torah following Jewish counterparts tend to avoid committing Federal crimes, although it's clear to me that the vast majority of Jews in the prison system are non observant Jews.
Thank you for your informative posts.

I am no mathematician but I would say the precise number is not so important as the fact that the number of Jews in prison is indeed VERY tiny.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:00 AM
 
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Quote:
For example if your Rabbi were to tell you that you should not report his son for raping your daughter, is there someone else you can appeal to or are you spiritually bound to his ruling, even if you believe it conflicts with the scriptures?
Purely hypothetical. The scenario is so far-fetched, but in a case like this--a dark alley rape, where the girl is purely victim and the girl/father knows who did it, they wouldn't consult with the FATHER of the boy.

There are halachos on how to deal with rodfim--pursuers, so to speak, which is also taken into consideration.

In Veggi's case, she'd have to follow due process, take her Rabbi to Beis Din and if he loses and if he doesn't comply with their ruling, get permission from the Beis Din to take him to court.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
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Nation's Prisons Face Soaring Demand for Kosher Food; Estimate at $40 Million

[LEFT]
http://www.koshertoday.com/Nations-Prisons-Face-Soaring-Demand-for-Kosher-Food.aspx

[/LEFT]
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,353 posts, read 24,084,481 times
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And from the UK:

Orthodox Jew........
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/jewish-crime-lord-behind-35million-cocaine-haul-sues-prison-chiefs-for-denying-him-kosher-food/
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:10 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Purely hypothetical. The scenario is so far-fetched, but in a case like this--a dark alley rape, where the girl is purely victim and the girl/father knows who did it, they wouldn't consult with the FATHER of the boy.
Of course it is purely hypothetical! That is the point. I am asking hypothetical questions to try and understand how it works. I understand how it works, (and doesn't) in Congregational forms of Christianity but I am curious how it works in Judaism, particularly the more insular Torah observant communities.

Feel free to use another example, but my question is how do you deal with conflicts of interest? Is their guidance for how to handle a problem that involves your local Rabbi? What is you have a whole chain of authority that you believe is wrong?

Again, this isn't a Jewish thing so much as an organizational thing. Is there some sort of informal Rabbinical equivalent to an Internal Affairs unit that helps to prevent a rogue leader from hiding crimes or using their spiritual authority for personal gain? I am just curious with how Judaism deals with these issues. For the most part I understand how Christianity does it, and I feel like I have a bit of an understanding of Islam from Woodrow's posts. In both those cases I think the answer is, "Not so well" so I am curious how your community deals with these issues.

-NoCapo
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
Purely hypothetical. The scenario is so far-fetched,
This is what our enemies do. They take a one in a million case and give it a full spotlight in order to impugn our people. Nothing new here... It's one of many tactics used against us Yidden. The fact that's it's our fellow Yidden doing it, well... (at least Pruzhany said he'd daven for me at Yom Kippur - btw, let me know if you need me to PM you my Hebrew name, so you can do it correctly)
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post

Again, this isn't a Jewish thing so much as an organizational thing. Is there some sort of informal Rabbinical equivalent to an Internal Affairs unit that helps to prevent a rogue leader from hiding crimes or using their spiritual authority for personal gain? I am just curious with how Judaism deals with these issues. For the most part I understand how Christianity does it, and I feel like I have a bit of an understanding of Islam from Woodrow's posts. In both those cases I think the answer is, "Not so well" so I am curious how your community deals with these issues.

-NoCapo
This forum does not have a representative from one of those insular Jewish communities, so this is all speculation. But I think the answer is that we don't do it so well either. In the rare cases where these terrible situations do occur, if you have a good rabbi, the case will indeed make it to the police - assuming that is the correct and proper halachic decision (again, every case is unique and must be judged on the specific merits of that case only). The norm is that the Rav tells the person to contact the police. The one in a million case involves a cover up.

BTW, those "insular Jewish communities" we're devoting a thread to make up perhaps a few thousand Jews in the US (depends how you define them), vs the the roughly 300 million total population of the US. And yet when one reads the news, or Pruzhany's posts, you'd think there were millions of these insular Jews who are all rapists and pedophiles - with their insular Rabbi's covering up their actions. I'm sure this wouldn't have anything to do with him growing up in one of those communities and then leaving it on terms he's never (nor does he have to) explained to us.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:24 AM
 
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FWIW, if I were ever, chas v'shalom, put into this terrible situation, I would ask my Rav. If I did not like his psak (halachic decision), I would request that he ask a shaila of his Rav. If I got the same answer from his Rav and still was unsatisfied, I would ask permission to call his Rav to discuss it further. If still the decision has not changed, then it's daas Torah, and I would not call the police. The Beis Din (Jewish court) is the only other route to go - after all the shailas have been answered - and yes, at that point, some serious bridges have been burned.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
FWIW, if I were ever, chas v'shalom, put into this terrible situation, I would ask my Rav. If I did not like his psak (halachic decision), I would request that he ask a shaila of his Rav. If I got the same answer from his Rav and still was unsatisfied, I would ask permission to call his Rav to discuss it further. If still the decision has not changed, then it's daas Torah, and I would not call the police. The Beis Din (Jewish court) is the only other route to go - after all the shailas have been answered - and yes, at that point, some serious bridges have been burned.
But the important thing is, you would have followed your conscience
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
But the important thing is, you would have followed your conscience
Not exactly. I would follow the Torah. And the Orthodox Rabbi's in today's time are the only people who truly have access to know what the Torah would ask of us. It's important that one pick their Rav very carefully, but it's wrong to "shaila shop" (which means if you don't like your Rav's answer, you may not just go find one who will give you the answer you do like).

If my conscience was screaming at me that my Rav has given the wrong answer, I would follow the process I outlined above whereby I would talk to my Rav's Rav, or the Beis Din, etc. But the key, is that I would do all of this within the confines of what Jewish law allows, and G-d forbid I would ever think I knew better than what the Torah tells me to do.
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