Lakewood NJ , Jewish community (living in, price, law)
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Have you ever talked to any of the women in this community? What about the fact that they must shave their heads, and that many of them wear wigs? Many of these woman have no sense about what is going on in this country.
What do you care? They're grown up women free to make their own choices. And you could talk to a hundred people on the street and every different one would have a different opinion about "what is going on in this country". Who says yours is right? Unless they are breaking any laws that infringe apon YOUR rights it is absolutely NONE of your business.
Just as it is nobody elses business what you get up to behind closed doors with other consenting adults, nobody elses business what you choose to wear (unless you are a flasher) and nobody elses business how you choose where to live.
THAT is the wonderful freedom of this country. Respect it and uphold it.
Says who?
You?
Give me some facts, not your opinions.
Excuse me, where have you posted anything apart from opinions? You are not comfortable around a group of people, you don't like their way of life and so you condemn it and them.
I know plenty of people in the Orthodox Community all over the world. I lived in Jerusalem for many years, home to a massive Orthodox population and a lot of my work was centered within that population. My wife has Orthodox friends. There is considerable flux between the religious and non religious communities - people leave and other people join (hoser b'teshuva - look it up).
Like ANY other group, some are more insular than others. Some families stricter, some more open to the outside world. The families bring up their kids within their faith and traditions, this means that the children as they grow are more likely to continue with those traditions, but it does not shackle them, in fact Judaism insists on choice - a religious law followed not through choice has less value.
In what way are they any more insular than Fundementalist Christians in the Midwest who homeschool so their kids so they are not exposed to outside influence? They dress differently? They have Saturdays off instead of Sundays?
Is it a lifestyle I choose for myself? No. I didn't grow up in it, I have had a multicultural upbringing, am not very religious and don't wish to live within those strictures. But I do believe in freedoms; freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, I wouldn't be OPEN about the world without those, I wouldn't be able to transcend cultures without that mindset. If you can be accepting of other cultures and ways of life, you have to be accepting of theirs too, otherwise you are a hypocrite, and certainly not open to the rest of the world.
I worked for several years for a company owned by Orthodox (who incidentally lived in Lakewood). I am not Jewish. I found my bosses to be very open to discussing the differences in custom and why they do the things they do. When I would ask them things, in an honest, forthright manner ("I have noticed on several occasions that your do xyz or don't do xyz - I hope you don't find it rude but I am very curious as to why ?). I have never felt like they wouldn't take the time to talk about it and would actually go out of their way to make sure I understood certain things. Things like not shaking a woman's hand, etc. it is more of an old world, traditional culture vs. a modernistic culture. In 1850, you would not ever ever find a woman driving in the front seat of a carriage with a man who was not her servant or her family member. If an Orthodox male is driving a non related woman, the woman will sit in the back seat. That is just an example but so much of what we perceive as being rude/reverse discrimination is just an insulated society.
I think the population on a whole is often looked down upon by non-Orthodox and they have rightly so developed a thick skin and no desire to chit-chat, and frankly I don't blame them. I will say that I have young children, and I have been in doctor waiting rooms with Orthodox moms and their kids, and their children have played along side mine, and I have had mothers initiate "small talk" with me after my saying a kind word to their child or smiling at the mother. I have also had discussions about quality of fruit/vegetables at the grocery store, and just general "mother-to-mother" eye rolling with ultra Orthodox moms while either my or their child were being disobedient or running amuk at a mall or at Marshalls. I have also encountered Orthodox families in Disneyworld, of all places, and not found them to be more rude than any others I have encountered.
Listen, if you were walking along and there was an Asian family and you said hello and they just looked at you, would you be as insulted ? What if you were in a grocery store and a clearly ethnic French woman on a cellphone with two children bumped your cart, would you be going on an on about it ? I think in this area, we have a natural curiosity because of the "Lakewood" Jewish absolute indifference to us. And too bad for us !! Many of these people live still in a very cultural home, similar to say a Portuguese immigrant or a Latin American immigrant. Even if they are 2nd or 3rd generation American, they are speaking a different language at home, and they are protective of their way of life and their religious customs which were nearly lost from some areas of the world not too long ago. They are not that unlike more traditional Muslim families (don't have a heart attack, Rabbi). They on a whole are almost from a different time. And I admire them for being so committed to their life. Religion is not a part of their life, it IS their life and this country might be in alot better shape if other religions, including my own, made God the focus and not just a Sunday 1 hour appointment.
Do I think that all the business practicies and the management of things in Lakewood are okay ? No, but really, is there a local government not without corruption and advantage takers ? Just because they have figured out how to "work the system" to their advantage - yes, they patronize "their own" but tell me, 50 or 70 or 200 years ago, when your family was a new immigrant, do you think they went out of their way to patronize other cultures who looked down on them ? No, they kept to theirselves. And with all the "Jew Bashing", who can blame them. How is Lakewood any different than Chinatown, or "Little Italy" of a generation ago ?
Have you BEEN to Chinatown in NYC lately ? There is not a non-tourist around who is not ethnically, culturally immersed Chinese. There are people there, elderly and young children, who do not speak a word of English and do not care to. They keep to their own, they patronize their own, they send their children to their own schools, they don't interact with anyone who is not Chinese unless it is for business. Walk in to a TRUE neighborhood Chinese business that does not cater to the tourist trade, and see how quickly you would recognize that brusque, can't be bothered with you attitude. How is it any different ? What about places like the Indian neighborhoods in Edison ? Do you think its any different there ? Surprise, its not. I just don't think you've been exposed to alot of different cultures to see the inner workings. I have been a health-care provider for many years, and I have intimiate dealings with Hispanic cultures, with Filipino, with different Indian (hindu, etc), with Bosnian and Serbian, with Gypsy, with Muslim, etc. Ever dealt with Armenians before ? Same thing. Its just we don't see it like it used to be, when every neighborhood had an ethnic identity.
And Rabbi Joe, I think it is a bit much to jump down the other poster's throat by starting to call him a German Catholic just because of his viewpoint.
You are correct. I did come across somewhat rude, I was trying a similar style writing as the first individual. You wrote correctly and I am very much appreciating your understanding, and your way of conveying it.
One of our fundamental beliefs is honesty; which includes business, ethics, and government dealings. I can vouch for myself and friends of mine that we do our utmost to set examples in these areas. There are some, like any community in the world, whom might need direction when it comes to this.
I also have no harsh feelings to other groups or religions at all, and actually enjoy meeting others and having open discussion. This forum certainly does generate this possibility.
Being that you are quite obviously very uneducated when it comes to anything Jewish, I would like to inform you that there are no "Hassidic's" is Lakewood, just Orthodox.
Those that mix are not Orthodox.
Oy, vey! I don't know about Lakewood, but there are the black-hat Orthodox (Hassidim), and then there are the just-plain Orthodox.
I have known several Orthodox Jews who mix fully in the larger society. In some circles, they find it necessary to identify themselves as "Modern Orthodox." Other than a yarmulke on the men, nothing in their dress or manner sets them apart. They observe Shabbat and Kashrut, visit the Mikvah as is necessary. They educate their children in yeshivot. They most decidedly mix in diverse circles, and if you were standing behind one on a checkout line, you'd never know.
Much of what you "believe" of me is so far off that it is not even funny.
YOu are so quick to label someone because they question the actions of others.
German?
Nazi?
Why would you say that?
Evidentally you must hate Germans.
As a Catholic I have been taught by my God not to hate. Not to have war.
Can you say the same?
YES!
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Next, I care tremendously about my grandparents and the life that they gave to all of us. My grandparents taught my parents to interact with Americans...to become one.
I was taught to be an honest upright American, and to respect and keep all American laws. I however, from birth was instilled with an appreciation, knowledge, love, respect, and deep understanding for my religion.
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As for Jews, as you put it.
I grew up with Jews. I had in grammar school and high school Jewish friends. One of my best friends is a Syrian Jew.
And listen to this...
Jews that I know even shake their heads about the Jews in Lakewood.
Ask him why. Then ask him if they or him are correct. By the way, how did your Syrian Jewish friend do on American History??
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Next, where did I say that Jews were uneducated about American History? Reread what I said...RabbiJoe.
I did.
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One more thing...
I wrote Puhlease.
No misprint.
Oh yeah, thanks for your "test".
I am still LMAO at the idea that you even think that you were testing me.
I'm so sorry you could not find an answer. Here are two liks that just might satisfy your lack of information.
Oy, vey! I don't know about Lakewood, but there are the black-hat Orthodox (Hassidim), and then there are the just-plain Orthodox.
I have known several Orthodox Jews who mix fully in the larger society. In some circles, they find it necessary to identify themselves as "Modern Orthodox." Other than a yarmulke on the men, nothing in their dress or manner sets them apart. They observe Shabbat and Kashrut, visit the Mikvah as is necessary. They educate their children in yeshivot. They most decidedly mix in diverse circles, and if you were standing behind one on a checkout line, you'd never know.
Hassidim aren't the same as Orthodox and neither are like Modern Orthodox. They worship differently and live their religious lives differently. It seems you feel one is "better' than another rather than just different because they don't stand out as much and other people are more comfortable around them.
Do you think Southern Baptists should become Episcopalian to conform?
Or that Catholic priests should drop the collar, or nuns drop the habit, or monks drop the robes so that they can "fit in" better and people won't know who they are?
Or that Greek or Russian Orthodox should switch to Methodist so they won't stand out too much by celebrating Christmas on a different day?
Hassidim aren't the same as Orthodox and neither are like Modern Orthodox. They worship differently and live their religious lives differently. It seems you feel one is "better' than another rather than just different because they don't stand out as much and other people are more comfortable around them.
Do you think Southern Baptists should become Episcopalian to conform?
Or that Catholic priests should drop the collar, or nuns drop the habit, or monks drop the robes so that they can "fit in" better and people won't know who they are?
Or that Greek or Russian Orthodox should switch to Methodist so they won't stand out too much by celebrating Christmas on a different day?
Lakewood's current Jewish community is based upon the world class higher learning center known as Beth Medrash Gavoha.
This Jewish Orthodox graduate and post-graduate school was founded by Rabbi Aaron Kotler during the 1940's. Lakewood at that time had a small Jewish mostly modern-orthodox non-learned population.
Today this school, basicly the focal point and center of Lakewood's orthodox community is run by an administration mostly comprised of Rabbi Aaron Kotler's descendants. Rabbi Malkiel Kotler, who is the one of the school's four deans, is Rabbi Aaron Kotler's grandson.
Rabbi Aaron Kotler, was a Ultra orthodox Leader. The school as well, and it's constitution, is ultra orthodox. Most (90%) of the some 4,000 students today, are Ultra Orthodox. Most of the Lakewood Jewish community is considered Ultra Orthodox.
Judaism is based upon teachings derived from Biblical sources, and defined and interpreted by the Talmud. During the mid 15th century, the Code of Law was compiled, completely based on these teachings, and their explanations.
All Jewish orthodox laws and costumes can be found in this text. The code of law, called; Shulchan Aruch, has four parts. This is the final say in all Jewish Orthodox law.
I repeat Orthodox, as opposed to Conservative Judaism, or Reform Judaism. They, the Conservative and Reform chop apart and choose what they like and don't like, changing their views and their laws every so often, as they see fit.
Orthodox Judaism has the following components:
Orthodox:
A: Ultra Orthodox - Black Hatters
B: Orthodox - Sometimes Hats - Sometimes Non Hats but Head Coverings
C: Modern Orthodox - Usually no hats - usually Head Coverings - various colors.
D: Hassidic - Long knee - ankle length jackets - fur hats on Saturday - many various groups.
Sefardim: (Minority in America)
Similar to Orthodox:
Derive most of orthodox laws from Maimonides - 12th century earlier then code of law sage.
Orthodox and Sefardim co-exist in perfect harmony although the basis for some of their laws and costumes are differant. Completely Respectful one another!
Lakewood is mostly Ultra Orthodox - with many regular Orthodox, few Modern Orthodox.. few Hassidic! Some Sefardim!
Just to point out: The level of orthodoxy, is dependant upon the degree and seriousness that one acknowledges and upholds the Jewish code of law. Hassidic style is to take upon oneself extra laws and costumes that are "optional" and more then Jewish Standards
I Hope I clarified.
One last point: All Orthodox Prayer books have a similar layout and texts. The same standards and order of prayer are used universally
as well. Sefardim have different costumes and prayer sequence, as well as different texts.
Last edited by RABBI JOE; 03-02-2008 at 02:25 PM..
Reason: Missing Info!
Rabbi, Hasidim are a sect within Ultra Orthodoxy, correct ? They follow a particular Grand Reb - I've heard some cynical Orthodox refer to them almost as a cult (?). Is that correct ? I think most people think anyone in a black suit and hat is Hasidic. I guess to compare to Christian religion - Hasidic would be the equivalent of a particular ultra fundamentalist incredibly insular splinter Christian denomination. Hasidm don't usually "mix" with the Orthodox/Ultra Orthodox very much, though, right ? I thought they don't usually cross paths so much and its not like one group routinely marries another (or am I wrong...) I am under the impression that the Hasidim originated in the 1600's (or thereabouts) in Eastern Europe (Romania ?).
Just trying to clarify for those who are not familiar.
Rabbi, Hasidim are a sect within Ultra Orthodoxy, correct ? They follow a particular Grand Reb - I've heard some cynical Orthodox refer to them almost as a cult (?). Is that correct ? I think most people think anyone in a black suit and hat is Hasidic. I guess to compare to Christian religion - Hasidic would be the equivalent of a particular ultra fundamentalist incredibly insular splinter Christian denomination. Hasidm don't usually "mix" with the Orthodox/Ultra Orthodox very much, though, right ? I thought they don't usually cross paths so much and its not like one group routinely marries another (or am I wrong...) I am under the impression that the Hasidim originated in the 1600's (or thereabouts) in Eastern Europe (Romania ?).
Just trying to clarify for those who are not familiar.
Hasidim are a sect within the orthodox community.Hasidim are orthodox and mix with other orthodox people. They follow all the jewish laws just like orthodox. The differences lie within dress,certain traditions,language and hasidim follow a rebbe. There are different sects like,bobov,belz,satmar. These are all named after european towns where the sect started in.Generally hasidim have their own schools.In most households, the main language spoken is yiddish. Hasidim and orthodox cross paths all the time, especially in Lakewood.There are towns around where its 100% hasidim. They have on in upstate new york called kiryas joel.It is possible that hasidim marry non hasidim but it doesnt happen too often
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