What is the absolute worst nieghborhood in nyc? (New York, Rochester: homes, neighborhoods)
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I agree with you, SuperMario, that there are some very dangerous areas of the Bronx today, but I think that NYCwoman is representative of a view that has changed, someone who has moved to the area and discovered that it's not all bad, just as it's sadly not all good. And, the fact that she was not hassled on her walk, no matter the route or her gender or racial descriptor, bespeaks volumes. Not too long ago, this would not have been the case at all, and the fact that the word is out that the NYPD can be effective, such that the gangs try to fly under the radar with a certain type of person in the area, is definitely progress. It could be a day very soon when said gangs have lost control of the areas, which should not be ceded to them in the first place, but there are sociological reasons as to why that happens, are gone for the very same reason, which does not necessarily imply gentrification as it can be a grass-roots movement.
It comes down to an age-old argument as to whether or not one views a situation optomistically or pessimistically, and it's easy given the bad reputations of many areas of sketchy provenance to fall into the pessimistic view that things cannot change, but it's the refreshing voices of optimism that stand up and say that the status quo is unacceptable, paving the way for change. And, I was laughing, but serious, when I said that I knew areas where a 311 call was treated with everything just short of armed response, but it's sad that it's not the case throughout every area of the city since that would do much to affect the quality of life.
Mayor Guiliani focused on quality-of-life crimes to bring about significant reductions in street crime in marginal areas, and the impact zones of the police were brought about in a similar vein, to try to stem the tide of crime. Effectiveness in such issues takes time when dealing with larger areas and the groundwork has been laid such that in conjunction with community-based groups who differ from the accepted "norm" of today that are beginning to rise and take back a park, a corner, or a park bench is indicative of this movement. Small steps set in force larger movements, since safer streets are better for everyone concerned.
I am not criticizing on either side of the argument, and I think that both Super Mario and NYCwoman have povided valid points of view on both sides of the argument, each of whom has based them on experience. The problem is that the experiences varied so much, not due to the individual posters, since I believe both are valid. We can all go to Fifth Avenue in the mid-50s and have a similar experience without too much room for argument as to the general safety and quality of the area, for example. The fact that we cannot do that in other areas gives an indication that there's a disconnect in the area. That's why a discussion on the topic can be productive to bring out both sides and help to set forth a means through which the gap can be bridged and a solid middle-ground can be established, since there are definitely more good people than bad who live in historically dangerous areas and that's no way to live in the USA, and especially not in NYC.
My thing is simply this. If you go to her website or if you follow any of her posts here you would notice a trend. She constantly speaks on how great certain neighborhoods are, and while some like Parkchester isn't all that bad, Mott Haven is terrible. Yet she seems to be pushing Mott Haven to people even comparing it to Williamsburg (which is never suffered the problems Mott Haven did). All her photos are taken in "decent" areas in Mott Haven and as you said yourself, no neighborhood is 100% bad. But those photos represent a tiny fraction of Mott Haven. She is putting Mott Haven on a pedestal in which it shouldn't be on. Hopefully one day Mott Haven can be said to be a great neighborhood (actual great neighborhood) but in 2008 it's not there yet. Whether it is the 50% of the population living in the projects or the majority of the people relying on public assistance or the terrible conditions of tenements and buildings many which are still boarded up and look like they are about to crumble (drive past the Major Deegan), or the $ 17,000 median family income or it being the poorest congressional district in the US or maybe its the high crime rate including 14 homicides last year....however you slice it Mott Haven is alot more bad than it is good. Back in it's hey day I venture to say no neighborhood, besides maybe Hunts Point, suffered more than Mott Haven and was as bad as Mott Haven. Harlem had similar crime rates but alot more of its buildings stood up. I can say the neighborhood has come a long way from what it was but in 2008 it is still the ghetto and unfortunately alot of bad things happen there.
All I want from Nycwoman, like I wanted from Guywithacause or whatever name he goes by now, is a little objectivity. Say it is an improving neighborhood but also mention the ills that plague it. That is the fair way of doing things. Some poor sucker reading all this hoopla about Mott Haven may actually move there and fear for his life for the rest of his stay.
Like I said earlier, if you're not involved in criminal activities, your chances of landing in trouble are very low to nil.
Supermario - saying she wasn't in "the real MH" because nothing happened to her is quite absurd. You live in Morris Heights and you're alive right? Isn't it the murder capital of the BX? You must live on boganvilla ave he he
Like I said earlier, if you're not involved in criminal activities, your chances of landing in trouble are very low to nil.
Supermario - saying she wasn't in "the real MH" because nothing happened to her is quite absurd. You live in Morris Heights and you're alive right? Isn't it the murder capital of the BX? You must live on boganvilla ave he he
Yeah but I dont walk down the streets of W Tremont avenue for 5 hours. Not so much the fact that she visited Mott Haven, but for 5 hours something is bound to happen. Especially if she had visited the areas I specified. Walk around for 5 hours anywhere and your chances of being a crime victim increases. Less time spent on the streets = less chance of being a victim of the streets.
What is more Mott Haven to you? Brownstones with people earning $75,000+ a year or a Puerto Rican family earning $15,000 in the projects? It's like responding to a tourist who visited yuppyland in NYC (wherever that is)and saying that they had a real NYC experience. That's not the case. Anyways I told her to walk around the whole neighborhood and then come back reporting. It just so happen that most of the nabe is pretty sketchy.
Thanks, Super Mario. I do understand providing the perspective of the transitional aspects of certain neighborhoods, and I agree that the good with the bad needs to be discussed for someone to have an accurate picture of a neighborhood. I do think that NYCwoman is a pioneer who can go into an area with courage and not have things happen because of the way she carries herself (and this is insight from her posts), not confrontational and not looking to displace people, but one who experiences with genuine interest. It is a different story for someone else, however, who might enter said areas with more of a "victim" stamp on their forehead through inexperience with neighborhoods that have a theatre of the street that plays by its own rules, especially after dark when many bad things can/do happen.
You're right about Mott Haven and Hunts Point being absolutely devastated when the neighborhoods fell, and they really fell not only in crime but the standard of living reverted to that akin to an undeveloped nation. Harlem was largely integral and crime happened, but it was in pockets if you were a local. And, I agree that the buildings did not literally fall into the street, or come close to it, even when boarded up. I remember seeing the fake windows that were put into buildings as well, some painted on the metal to look like windows so people on the trains would not necessarily know that swaths of the area were abandoned. Generally, locals could live/work in Harlem and not be affected by the neighborhoods as they fell because they knew the "rules" and when/where to go.
I must admit, however, that I nearly burst out laughing recently when someone I know (admitedly, a yuppie) told me that they had heard about this great up-and-coming section in Harlem called Sugar Hill. I just looked at them and said that they were a little late to the station on that train and the reason why it looked the way it did was not because it was on the upswing, but because IT NEVER FELL. That area has had individual owners and community involvement for generations, and while things decayed around them, they stood firm and largely kept the neighborhood strong. I just got a blank stare in return from this person, who is a native of the Tri-State Area. That's true for limited pockets in other areas that have had their share of troubles as well.
I can see that perspective is important in describing an area accurately, especially to those who are not familiar with them, in parts of the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, and even the totally Disney-gentrified Manhattan (LOL...right!). And a balance and objectivity on good versus bad does come through when we have a meeting of the minds in this forum to discuss the perceptions and conceptions, even if it can get heated, but then again, this is the NYC forum!
Cypress and St. Annes! Thank you SuperMario for jogging my memory. I DID walk down those streets – they are sandwiched in between and run parallel with Alexander’s and Brook right? I walked all through those areas – and beyond to Willis and Jackson (?). And I remember a Lincoln Blvd, as well. THOSE are the streets you are warning against?!?! Well, all I saw around the Mitchell Homes on those streets were lower income people, young and old, families, people going about their business, a few teenagers hanging out, a group of old men sitting on the park benches playing cards or some sort of game (they smile and waved at me, btw)….Hmmm, were there drug deals going on right in front of my face? Who knows? But I know I didn’t come across anyone who looked (to me) like murderers, gangbangers, demons or boogeymen, etc. Maybe they were all sleeping it off the day I was there (or were invisible J)…Again, I did NOT feel threatened.
The area where I got that really nasty stare was from a guy coming out of a bodega right in front of St. Mary’s Park. He came out smiling, talking to someone else on the street and then – boom, he saw me and in a heart beat his smile turned into a really nasty look! (SuperMario – was that you?? LOL) That was also the area where a few other people seemed surprised to see a lone white woman walking around.
And the area that I mentioned before that I wouldn’t want to walk by at night was an area where there were vacant lots and some public housing (???) called something like Destiny Homes or something like that…But the areas you mention…piece of cake compared to other parts. (Again, just my perception and experience on that day.)
And I will gladly continue this – and maybe with bmwguydc moderating, you and I will behave ourselves and elevate our debate to a higher level.
See ya all later tonight or this weekend. I have to sign out for now...
Yup. I distinctly recall hearing back in the day that Joseph Ave. in particular was a good place to get shot.
Long Island has some rough areas, too. Hempstead in particular I remember hearing was very rough-- lots of gangs.
Yeah it was still until recently as the RPD (Rochester Police Dept.) put cameras on a lot of high crime areas and that slowed the shootings up somewhat, but not enough.
My good friend was killed by some Bloods on Seward Street off of Genesee Street last Thursday
What are you kidding me? Morris Heights is a terrible neighborhood. Crime rate of 1,500+ per 100,000. The 46th precinct had 18 homicides last year and so far 11 this year. Those are among the highest in the city. Before you say that I dont live there, I live right above it on 183rd and Andrews, so I would know a thing about Morris/University Heights. The roughest parts are University ave 176th, University ave and Tremont, Burnside and Loring Place, Undercliff right above the Cross Bronx, Grand and 176th, then dont forget the area around the Sedgwick houses by Featherbed.
In fact the two most ghetto strips I've seen in the Bronx are W 183rd st from Aqueduct to Jerome avenue in University Heights and University avenue W 174th to Burnside avenue in Morris Heights. These are the definition of ghetto. Morris Heights has an income of around $19,000 and rehabbed buildings on University, Andrews and Macombs. Vacant lots are on 174th and Featherbed (where they are building condos), 175th University, Tremont and University among other places. Trust me I know the neighborhood like the back of my hand, East NY has NOTHING on Morris Heights.
You are the first person I heard that actually knows that, as in the Ville and ENY, more of thier crimes are reported than in Morris Heights, where there is alot more open space and less people that know anything. I know about 1-7-4 and 1-7-6. You can't screw around over there. I ain't lived there in 5 years but it couldn't have gotten that much worse could it???
But I lived near the corner of Loring & Burnside (I lived on Loring) and the block was family so I don't know what you are talking about "the corner of Burnside and Loring Place" and mentioning it like it's so bad. I heard gunshots at night daily, though, but the corner in question isn't bad or at least it wasn't
Shizzles, as an avid world traveler who has not only been to almost every continent (including several countries in Africa and many, many other third wold nations) not only traveling but LIVING and WORKING in and among the local populations (even doing a few stints in mini Peace Corp-type projects) and being heavily involved throughout my life in many cross-cultural exchange progams, both here and abroad to promote peace and understanding - I find your post highly insulting, off the mark, patronizing and....well, let's just leave that in my head (no need to get myself banned, now is there?)
And Page....gee whiz kiddo...not even worth it....
If some out there think that the Bronx is better off without "property-owners", whites and people who believe in making places better for everyone, then I probably will never be able to change their minds. Wallow in it however much you choose. Knock yourself out!
I never said the Bronx shouldn't be home to White people (it was before, why not again?). I'm not SuperMario in my views on NYC, but there is a very real naiveity about other cultures that many white people exhibit. I don't doubt that there is tons of friendly and real people in these hoods, as I have met some of them. But they will be the first to tell you that there is a sickness that pervades many residents trapped in the cycle of government dependancy and hip-hop ignorance. I distinctly remember an MTA worker (Who was Black) blocking me from attempting to transfer between the 3 and L lines in Brownsville, with my saftey in mind. If he was adamate enough to disrupt my freedom of movement for my saftey, what do you think it says about these areas?
And yes, there is an anti-white hatred flowing through some people in these hoods, which is fueled by the poverty industry and self-hating academics. I agree with you that it's stupid and wrong. It was always amusing to go to school with white kids wishing they could go to Africa while right next to me were two kids from Sierra Leone who spent a 3,000 mile journey in a container to leave such a hellhole. And then people wonder why there is such a disconnect.
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