The long term effects of spanking and slapping (support, game, eight year old)
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I didn't mean to imply that all or even MOST parents in the South are like this. It's just what I've seen from parents who firmly believe in spanking. And I also think the size of a town/city may have something to do with it. A small, southern town gets a double dose of "MYOB" philosophy. It's easy to justify pretty much anything when you go too far with it.
Your last statement is a pretty broad brush of parents that may use corporal punishment in any form. This is why these discussions never end up on a positive note since we can't reach that middle ground.
I've stayed out of this discussion until now. I hold middle ground in this debate about spanking.
On the whole, I think parents should try to raise kids without it. I am aware of the studies that show that spanking can make some children more aggressive and I think, based on personal observation, there is something to it. I also hate the idea of hitting or striking my kids. One would think with the education that we have that DW and I could find other options. For the most part we have.
What I haven't seen much reference to here are a handful of situations that come up with children that may literally involve life and limb. My response to a situation that may involve my child's life or a the potential of a serious injury was always much more dramatic than my response to back talk, not doing home work, or even occasional dishonesty. The last three things I dealt with through loss of privileges. Fortunately, I only encountered a couple of situations that could have resulted in the loss of my child's life or a serious injury over the years. However, the couple of times I did, I will state, without apology, that I spanked my son.
The home we have raised our children in is located within about one-half a mile of a creek that is usually only a trickle nine months of the year. In the spring, its a different story. During run off, the creek could carry a child away and drown them. My experience is also that there is something fascinating about running water and many kids are drawn to it. In short, my son was told to stay away from that stream and he was told he would be spanked with his pants pulled down if he broke that rule. He broke it and that consequence followed. He never broke the rule again. Anti-spankers will probably jump in and say something to the effect that we could have kept our son under lock and key during this time period. I could have avoided letting him go out of the house at all I suppose. My answer is that its pretty hard to keep an eight year old boy indoors for two or three months. Also, doing that would have kept him from enjoying other social opportunities with other kids in the area. Perhaps, others would suggest I could have taken the child to talk to paramedics or a hospital emergency room worker to talk about the dangers of drowning. My answer to that is that I did---after he got spanked.
Parenting is not a science and no two kids are the same. I think stating any rule (spanking is never acceptable) as an absolute is a mistake. The problem with parenting like so many things in life is that there are always going to be exceptions to rules. The kid may be different than the average kid. The behavior may be exceptionally dangerous behavior. I think focusing on "goals" is more important than focusing on a hard and fast rule. In my son's situation that day, that time, I felt spanking was absolutely the right thing to do.
What behavior patterns are you seeing? I am in New England. I wonder if you and I see the same thing. It seems to me that I see a lot of kind of disengaged parents, parents who don't really expect that it is possible or desirable for their kids to behave. The soothe, cajole, plead. In the final analysis if they "can't get" their kid to do something, it doesn't get done.
I am told all the time how well behaved my kids are with wonder on faces and voices as if my kids are magical. One colleague of mine goes on and on about how he can't get his girls to do this or that, or that they are always fighting. We are reasonable close. So I said you know it does not have to be like that. You can discipline them. He replies oh no my wife won't let me spank them. So I loan him my three books. I said I have don't raise my voice to my kids, let alone my hand. And I have almost zero behavior problems. And it is EASY once you put a couple of new skills in the toolbox. The books are still there, unread, on his shelf. He does not want to learn new skills. He wants to wring his hands about the fact that his kids are miserable beasts.
I truly don't get it.
To answer your question honestly and believe me I'm not arguing with you...this is based on my own personal observations. I live in Central NJ. We are a commuter town with many people who commute into NYC. We also have many transplants from NYC who have settled out here in the 'burbs.' Our area is an interesting blend of cultures, personalities. Things are very fast paced here and the Jersey attitude is very much alive and well. People are impatient and won't cut you slack. Everyone seems stressed and in a hurry.
Because we live in such an expensive area with a huge property tax burden (we pay $13k on a $296k house), many people are forced to work. I'm one of the few stay-at-home moms around here and many kids are latch-key. People seem rushed, frenzied and I see this in many of the kids. Although we don't live in a "rich" neighborhood with McMansions, most folks here drive the latest and greatest luxury cars with our 2004 and 2005 models being rather junky for the neighborhood. (Sorry but they are very low milage cars with less that 50k on them).
Parents? I do see some of them disengaged, at least from my observations when out and about. Cell phones are a fixture on their heads. They are stressed, they are worn out from their commutes, they are impatient. I've been honked at, tail gated (and flipped off) by more than one minivan making its frantic rounds. Sure, they are involved on the weekends shuttling kids around from activity to activity but it just seems frenzied for lack of a better word. The kids I see seem impatient, whiney and almost disengaged too from their parents. I've seen a growing materialistic streak in my kids and peer pressure in middle school is enormous. Heck, even my daughter in Kintergarten was lambasted by some of the other kids on the bus for what she was wearing. In our Middle School at least, the 6th graders look like they are dressed for night clubs. Maybe this is a country wide trend but we've thought long and hard about sending both kids to a private Catholic school with uniforms and may do so next year if we are still here.
I know that I'm painting a horrid picture of where we live and there are positive points to living here too. Maybe we just live in the wrong part of NJ however we did buy our house long before kids were in the picture.
As to our kids, we are trying our best to keep them grounded. They are well behaved kids--can take them out with us and they are really nice to be around. They help around the house--in fact they are big helpers. They generally keep their room neat. They are loving to us, they are loving to our pets. They aren't out of control. We are looking to move for a variety of reasons---I want my husband to be in a job that he is happy in and not have a horrid commute into a place he can't stand. My daughter has another host of issues that we are trying to get a handle on but that really isn't pertinent to this spanking thread.
Hope this answers your question. I really like New England btw but looking for something out west if we ever do get out of here.
Parenting is not a science and no two kids are the same. I think stating any rule (spanking is never acceptable) as an absolute is a mistake. The problem with parenting like so many things in life is that there are always going to be exceptions to rules. The kid may be different than the average kid. The behavior may be exceptionally dangerous behavior. I think focusing on "goals" is more important than focusing on a hard and fast rule.
To answer your question honestly and believe me I'm not arguing with you...this is based on my own personal observations.
Yes I was hoping you would share your observations.
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I live in Central NJ. We are a commuter town with many people who commute into NYC. We also have many transplants from NYC who have settled out here in the 'burbs.' Our area is an interesting blend of cultures, personalities. Things are very fast paced here and the Jersey attitude is very much alive and well. People are impatient and won't cut you slack. Everyone seems stressed and in a hurry.
Because we live in such an expensive area with a huge property tax burden (we pay $13k on a $296k house), many people are forced to work. I'm one of the few stay-at-home moms around here and many kids are latch-key. People seem rushed, frenzied and I see this in many of the kids. Although we don't live in a "rich" neighborhood with McMansions, most folks here drive the latest and greatest luxury cars with our 2004 and 2005 models being rather junky for the neighborhood. (Sorry but they are very low milage cars with less that 50k on them).
Parents? I do see some of them disengaged, at least from my observations when out and about. Cell phones are a fixture on their heads. They are stressed, they are worn out from their commutes, they are impatient. I've been honked at, tail gated (and flipped off) by more than one minivan making its frantic rounds. Sure, they are involved on the weekends shuttling kids around from activity to activity but it just seems frenzied for lack of a better word. The kids I see seem impatient, whiney and almost disengaged too from their parents. I've seen a growing materialistic streak in my kids and peer pressure in middle school is enormous. Heck, even my daughter in Kintergarten was lambasted by some of the other kids on the bus for what she was wearing. In our Middle School at least, the 6th graders look like they are dressed for night clubs. Maybe this is a country wide trend but we've thought long and hard about sending both kids to a private Catholic school with uniforms and may do so next year if we are still here.
You and I don't share entirely the same demographic. I live in a rural town in northern NE. We are farms and a bedroom community to a city that NY would laugh at being called a city. It is UBER liberal here. The disengagement. I meant was not so much busy but unegaged in working toward decent behavior as if the idea that it was possible had never even entered their heads.
I am thinking that there is a misunderstanding of what it means to be respectful and positive toward your kids and its equating with every kid's want is a need.
We have an even mix of WOH and SAH parenting I would guess. I don't think that has much to do with it here.
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I know that I'm painting a horrid picture of where we live and there are positive points to living here too. Maybe we just live in the wrong part of NJ however we did buy our house long before kids were in the picture.
I would not want to live there either, honestly.
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As to our kids, we are trying our best to keep them grounded. They are well behaved kids--can take them out with us and they are really nice to be around. They help around the house--in fact they are big helpers. They generally keep their room neat. They are loving to us, they are loving to our pets. They aren't out of control. We are looking to move for a variety of reasons---I want my husband to be in a job that he is happy in and not have a horrid commute into a place he can't stand. My daughter has another host of issues that we are trying to get a handle on but that really isn't pertinent to this spanking thread.
Hope this answers your question. I really like New England btw but looking for something out west if we ever do get out of here.
It sounds like there are differences even within New England. Not surprising I guess that rural and urban/suburban would be different.
Anti-spankers will probably jump in and say something to the effect that we could have kept our son under lock and key during this time period. I could have avoided letting him go out of the house at all I suppose. My answer is that its pretty hard to keep an eight year old boy indoors for two or three months. Also, doing that would have kept him from enjoying other social opportunities with other kids in the area. Perhaps, others would suggest I could have taken the child to talk to paramedics or a hospital emergency room worker to talk about the dangers of drowning. My answer to that is that I did---after he got spanked.
I won't suggest either. But I would suggest that parents who let their kids go outside near a danger such as a creek should go WITH them. Getting out with your kids instead of sitting inside all the time when they play is a great way to foster the bond between you, as well as strengthen their commitment to exercise. Find a reasonable balance between how often you want to get out and how often they need to. Not saying that you do this, but if you always stay inside and watch TV, they may eventually grow into this habit as well, even if they're active as young children.
Aside from that, you make boundaries and make sure your kid understands where those boundaries are. Make it far enough from the creek where you know you can run and get him if he starts walking toward it.
I do understand the usefulness of spanking here (especially since you had already made the threat), but I'd still probably rather give him an extra firm talking to. Eight years old is old enough to understand the danger of drowning if you explain it to him. And yes, I would've told my son of this beforehand, sparing no frightening details.
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Originally Posted by markg91359
Parenting is not a science and no two kids are the same. I think stating any rule (spanking is never acceptable) as an absolute is a mistake. The problem with parenting like so many things in life is that there are always going to be exceptions to rules. The kid may be different than the average kid.
Yes, but why? Why are kids different in terms of "needing" to be spanked? It's true that they are born with temperaments that shape their personalities independent of how they're raised, but this only means MORE effort in teaching them, not that the effort should ever be physical discipline.
You and I don't share entirely the same demographic. I live in a rural town in northern NE. We are farms and a bedroom community to a city that NY would laugh at being called a city. It is UBER liberal here. The disengagement. I meant was not so much busy but unegaged in working toward decent behavior as if the idea that it was possible had never even entered their heads.
I envy you with the rural town. In my idyllic world, that would be my goal. It sounds really appealing. I could live with the uber liberal since many around our parts are pretty liberal including my best friend. My husband---he would need to adjust and decompress after working in NYC for many years, lol.
One other thing that bothers me and perhaps it is just the suburban/urban environment that we live in is general reclusiveness that people have. When we first moved in this neighborhood, people got to know one another a bit more. As we get more transplants from the outlying areas of NYC, I find that there is an attitude of distrust. We had some neighbors move in from Brookyln. I'm a super friendly person and got on this woman's good side when I lent her our heaters when the gas company shut off her gas for a few hours. Otherwise, she has made no friends here and all her kid's playmates are from a very closed inner circle. When they play in their fenced in backyard with security fence, she stands out there with arms crossed for hours---her oldest is in 5th grade. I was hoping for our kids to make friends with them but it hasn't clicked and the atmosphere is of such fretfulness on their part. You would think that our neighborhood had a halfway house for sex offenders or something. I find that a number of people that have moved here from the city have the same nervous qualities. Being a rather rural girl myself from Hawaii, I've never felt the vibe of the area. Some love it, I don't.
Anyway, this is way offtopic from spanking but just wanted to comment.
I won't suggest either. But I would suggest that parents who let their kids go outside near a danger such as a creek should go WITH them. Getting out with your kids instead of sitting inside all the time when they play is a great way to foster the bond between you, as well as strengthen their commitment to exercise. Find a reasonable balance between how often you want to get out and how often they need to. Not saying that you do this, but if you always stay inside and watch TV, they may eventually grow into this habit as well, even if they're active as young children.
I find your statement entirely condescending, judgmental and..........rather aggressive. You don't know this parent, you weren't there for the situation. Markg shared a one time incident where corporal punishment was used and it made a point. He normally doesn't use it!! To turn this into a lecture to spend more time with the kid for bonding and exercise is just absurd.
I think that you take great delight in twisting things around into where they are a tangled web, always painting a negative light on someone who may have different parenting techniques. Then again, there is no middle ground on these debates. You are either a terrible parent for spanking Sally or an utterly permissive parent for doing timeouts.
Oh well, why bother in this debate. Time to eat a late breakfast. The alarm guy just tuned up our alarm system and now just left. One of our smoke detectors was out. (Waits for a lecture on fire safety and fire drills for the family and how I'm a neglectful parent).
I find your statement entirely condescending, judgmental and..........rather aggressive. You don't know this parent, you weren't there for the situation. Markg shared a one time incident where corporal punishment was used and it made a point. He normally doesn't use it!! To turn this into a lecture to spend more time with the kid for bonding and exercise is just absurd.
Irrelevant, since I didn't attack them or say they were wrong. I only said what I would've done or suggested, as invited by "Anti-spankers will probably jump in and say something to the effect that we could have kept our son under lock and key". But I didn't see you jump in and call THAT condescending or judgemental...
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Originally Posted by Linmora
I think that you take great delight in twisting things around into where they are a tangled web, always painting a negative light on someone...
Here *holds up a mirror* Say that again.
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