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ESPN article on Peyton Manning and how it really doesn't matter who's on his O-Line. A lot of people seem to think Manning looks good because his protection is so good, but it's more the case that his protection is so good because he understands the game so well.
Quote:
The Broncos, in recent weeks, have been using three players -- left tackle Ty Sambrailo, left guard Max Garcia and center Matt Paradis -- none of whom have started a regular-season NFL game. Mathis, if all goes well in his work over the next three weeks, projects to move into the left guard spot and offer some on-field comfort for Sambrailo and Paradis on either side of him.
But no matter what the makeup of his offensive line, Manning has been remarkably consistent in avoiding sacks. With Pro Bowl linemen, with no Pro Bowl linemen, with younger players, with older players -- it hasn't really mattered all that much.
"That's because [Manning] understands where you're bringing pressure from all the time and how to avoid it," Rams coach Jeff Fisher said.
People seem to forget that the Broncos lost their best lineman the same season Peyton threw those 55 TD passes. A "bad offensive line" is no excuse to be taking sacks at a higher rate than every other QB in the NFL, especially when there are teams with equally bad or worse offensive lines like the Jets and Bucs.
1. Scherff got beat. I don't agree with Cooley on this one. Scherff is a rookie and it showed. However, I think he'll be a fine lineman for years to come, and I don't think there are many "upgrades" available. I don't fault RG3 for this play.
2. I thought the protection was okay on this one though he took a bit of a hit at the end of the play. I give RG3 credit for recognizing what appeared--at least in the freeze frame--to be the best available option (Garcon squatting in the hole).
3. I put more blame on RG3 on this play for locking on to his first receiver with the stare of death and never letting go. Sure, it was a delayed blitz, but that left Garcon wide open for what would have been a sure first down (assuming he didn't drop it). Andrew Luck would have recognized that.
4. Inconclusive. Some would say it's up to the QB to make the protection adjustment. The lineman was clearly assigned (or thought he had been assigned) to a double team on this play and then lunges back when he sees the end with a clear path to the QB. This could fall on the center for not calling out the right protection, Smith for doing the wrong thing, or RG3 for not adjusting the protection. I can't pretend like I'm authority to say which.
5. Play action. I put this one on Griffin. If you freeze frame at 0:42, he has a pretty clean pocket, but then for whatever reason decides to run back to his left (and runs into his own lineman), leading to the sack. He never saw No. 97 who had leaked wide open underneath and would have at least had a pickup of 4 or 5 yards. He could have (and should have) stepped ever so slightly to his right for a very easy completion.
6. Fumble. That's obviously on him. Some might question the wisdom of calling a passing play on 3rd and 16 near your own endzone. Then again, it's the pre-season, and if you want to get your QB reps, then why not?
Again, having never played the QB position in the NFL, I'm not sure how you're supposed to recognize a delayed blitz. I know that Ben Muth was starting O-Lineman at Stanford (never played in the NFL) and blogs about offensive lines. According to him, RG3 should have done a better of job of recognizing the situation.
On DeAndre Levy hit on RG3, NFL offensive lineman text me that the QB is actually responsible for that. RG3 just didn't process it.
— Matt Miller (@nfldraftscout) August 21, 2015
Big hit on RG3 everyone was RT-ing earlier looked like it was on qb. Protection not designed to block LB that hit him. Gotta throw the ball
I think the same issues he had in 2014 were evident in last week's game.
I've never played offensive linemen or professional football. I'm not sure if you have. Being spectators, I think we see a guy rush up the middle, deliver a hit on the QB, and then assume that someone on the O-Line blew an assignment. But according to the WaPo article quoting Trent Williams, that wasn't the case, and the responsibility fell on Griffin (not Smith) to recognize the blitzer and assign someone to pick him up. In the diagram I posted above, Peyton Manning does that by saying "54 is Mike," and I'm sure he's not the only QB in the NFL who's able to recognize blitzers (though he's one of, if not, the best at it). That's often the difference between a short completion or incomplete pass and a sack or bone crushing hit. Other QBs don't get hit as much because they read defenses better and move in the pocket better.
We see the same struggles with Kaepernick. Forced to stand in the pocket, he demonstrates little pocket awareness, poor field vision and indecisiveness, which leads to him taking a slew of sacks. Yeah, he's got impressive physical tools (height, size, strong arm, speed) but those things don't necessarily make a good QB.
I can't really fault them for their progression (or lack thereof) since so many of these QBs are coming out of spread offenses in college where they don't have to make many challenging throws. Just because you tore up in the Big 12 doesn't mean you're going to thrive against more complex defensive schemes with far superior speed, intelligence and athleticism. Guys like Andrew Luck and Teddy Bridgewater (or even Derek Carr) seem to be doing better because they played in pro-style systems that demanded more of them than simply following a play.
Simply put. It's not RGIII's fault 100% of the time, and it's not the offensive line's fault 100% of the time. I can't help if people are so hellbent on blaming RGIII for every little thing that goes wrong with the offense, but the reality is, the offensive line is going to have a bad outing, the quarterback is going to have a bad outing, the receivers, the running backs...to blame RGIII on everything, all the time, is just plain out ridiculous and lazy.
The truth is, the offensive line has just as much responsibility in recognizing blitzes as the quarterback. I saw it time and time again when the hogs played for the Redskins. You can't tell me Mark Rypien recognized blitzing schemes each and every time he dropped back to pass. No, that offensive line was smart and physical enough to thwart most rushes, stunts, and all out blitzes, allowing the quarterback to look very good. I mean, come on. Look at the quarterbacks who played for the Redskins in the 80's and early 90's. None of them are Hall of famers. Theismann was the last true franchise quarterback the Redskins ever had, yet he's not a hall of famer. So, it's bit ridiculous to compare how well Peyton Manning recognizes pre-snap schemes. Peyton Manning hardly gets sacked, but if you pay attention, he still gets hit. Joe Montana hardly got sacked, but he still got hit. People magnify each and every bump and sack RGIII takes because people love to hate on the guy. People want RGIII to fail just so they can say he was a fluke. And if he succeeds, well, it's because the offensive line is so much better. I know the game some of you haters like to play. At the end of the day, I can care less who lines up under center. As long as the Redskins are kicking butt and putting W's on the board, I'm happy.
Simply put. It's not RGIII's fault 100% of the time, and it's not the offensive line's fault 100% of the time. I can't help if people are so hellbent on blaming RGIII for every little thing that goes wrong with the offense, but the reality is, the offensive line is going to have a bad outing, the quarterback is going to have a bad outing, the receivers, the running backs...to blame RGIII on everything, all the time, is just plain out ridiculous and lazy.
Nobody's saying it's RG3's fault 100% of the time. But it is apparently RG3's fault more often than it is the fault of other QBs in the League, which is why he gets sacked so much. Again, look at the numbers.
Kirk Cousins (8/204) - 25.5 passes per sack
Robert Griffin (33/214) - 6.48 per sack
They played behind the same offensive line. Why is it that Cousins seems well-protected while RG3 doesn't? Is it simply that the O-Line wants to sabotage him? Are they inspired by Cousins and want to play hard for him? Does Gruden install a completely different offense for Cousins? Or does the O-Line simply not play well when he's on the field?
I'm inclined to place most of the blame on RG3. There is no such thing as the perfect offensive line or QBs who never get hit or sacked. Even Peyton Manning gets pulverized on occasion. But when you're getting pulverized all the time, and even the Mark Sanchezs, Geno Smiths, Jason Campbells, Tavoris Jacksons and Blake Bortles of the world can manage to avoid sacks better than you can, then that's clearly an issue with the QB. You could probably put a complete Pro-Bowl cast of linemen in front of RG3 and he gets sacked every 10 passes instead of every 6.5. You could probably then take Andrew Luck and put the Skins O-Line in front of him and see no difference.
You can't tell me Mark Rypien recognized blitzing schemes each and every time he dropped back to pass. No, that offensive line was smart and physical enough to thwart most rushes, stunts, and all out blitzes, allowing the quarterback to look very good. I mean, come on. Look at the quarterbacks who played for the Redskins in the 80's and early 90's. None of them are Hall of famers.
You can't compare the more run-heavy NFL of the 80s to the more pass-heavy NFL of 2015. The QB position is more demanding today simply because offenses pass more. For guys like Russell Wilson who land on teams with a strong run game and strong defense, sure, they don't have to do much, but QBs who are drafted 2nd overall are expected to be more than game managers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37
So, it's bit ridiculous to compare how well Peyton Manning recognizes pre-snap schemes. Peyton Manning hardly gets sacked, but if you pay attention, he still gets hit. Joe Montana hardly got sacked, but he still got hit.
It's not ridiculous. You act as if Manning is the only QB in the NFL who does that. He's not the only guy who does it, he's just the best at it. There are other guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, and Nick Foles (hardly "elite") that do a better job of it. Then you have Griffin's contemporaries like Andrew Luck who's always done a much better job of it.
And sorry, I don't remember Manning and Montana getting knocked out of games all of the time. Yes, they got hit because this is football after all, but to suggest that those guys took regular beatings the way RG3 does is beyond preposterous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37
People magnify each and every bump and sack RGIII takes because people love to hate on the guy. People want RGIII to fail just so they can say he was a fluke. And if he succeeds, well, it's because the offensive line is so much better. I know the game some of you haters like to play. At the end of the day, I can care less who lines up under center. As long as the Redskins are kicking butt and putting W's on the board, I'm happy.
I don't hate RG3. My focus has been 100% about what happens on the field. I don't care about his dad, his quotes, his wife, etc.
I think Skins fans have a huge emotional investment in RG3 because (1) the organization gave up so much to get him and (2) they believe he can recapture his 2012 glory. Those two things, imo, cloud people's thinking about him.
You can't compare the more run-heavy NFL of the 80s to the more pass-heavy NFL of 2015. The QB position is more demanding today simply because offenses pass more. For guys like Russell Wilson who land on teams with a strong run game and strong defense, sure, they don't have to do much, but QBs who are drafted 2nd overall are expected to be more than game managers.
People think it's more pass happy and it often appears to be that way, but the truth is, teams in general, run more plays because there is less time on the play clock than there were back in the 80's. And because of this, yes, there might be more passing plays, but there's also more plays in general. But there also is still a need for balanced offenses, and time and time again, it's been proven that teams with strong running games and balanced offenses are the teams that generally win more games. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, a balanced offense has always been the key to putting points on the board, and that has not changed in today's NFL.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
It's not ridiculous. You act as if Manning is the only QB in the NFL who does that. He's not the only guy who does it, he's just the best at it. There are other guys like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, and Nick Foles (hardly "elite") that do a better job of it. Then you have Griffin's contemporaries like Andrew Luck who's always done a much better job of it.
Nobody ever made such a statement that Manning was the only quarterback who does pre-snap reads. As matter fact I think I did make the statement before that Manning is the best at doing so, but the simple fact that your comparing a 15+ year vet who's a future Hall of Famer, to a 3 year player who's had one good year is kind of ridiculous, and doesn't really support your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
And sorry, I don't remember Manning and Montana getting knocked out of games all of the time. Yes, they got hit because this is football after all, but to suggest that those guys took regular beatings the way RG3 does is beyond preposterous.
I do. Montana has had numerous injuries throughout his career. In fact, I remember the game in which he got pummeled by Jim Burt, I believe it was, in a playoff game against the Giants. He never returned in that game. And, how is it that Manning had to have those neck surgeries? Hhhmmmm....if he never gets hit, how is it that he needed neck surgery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I think Skins fans have a huge emotional investment in RG3 because (1) the organization gave up so much to get him and (2) they believe he can recapture his 2012 glory. Those two things, imo, cloud people's thinking about him.
Honestly, I think you have more emotional investment in RG3 than what us Redskins fans do. I mean, how many times do we have to say that we don't really care who the quarterback is, as long as we win games, yet you continue to type up big diatribes about how everything is RGIII's fault?
Nobody ever made such a statement that Manning was the only quarterback who does pre-snap reads. As matter fact I think I did make the statement before that Manning is the best at doing so, but the simple fact that your comparing a 15+ year vet who's a future Hall of Famer, to a 3 year player who's had one good year is kind of ridiculous, and doesn't really support your argument.
Andrew Luck also does it better. I didn't bring up Manning to suggest that RG3 should be on his level. It was simply to point out how QBs make pre-snap protection adjustments and that taking a season ending hit is not always a foregone conclusion behind the Skins O-Line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37
I do. Montana has had numerous injuries throughout his career. In fact, I remember the game in which he got pummeled by Jim Burt, I believe it was, in a playoff game against the Giants. He never returned in that game. And, how is it that Manning had to have those neck surgeries? Hhhmmmm....if he never gets hit, how is it that he needed neck surgery?
Joe Montana missed one game during his first three seasons. Manning didn't miss a single game until his 14th season in the NFL. RG3 has already missed 10 regular season games in his short career and couldn't even make it through the second week of pre-season without being concussed. I don't know how you think they are remotely comparable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37
Honestly, I think you have more emotional investment in RG3 than what us Redskins fans do. I mean, how many times do we have to say that we don't really care who the quarterback is, as long as we win games, yet you continue to type up big diatribes about how everything is RGIII's fault?
I didn't say everything is his fault. You should quote me saying that, and if you can't find it, you should admit you were wrong and/or that you were exaggerating.
I said that I lay most of the blame for his sacks on him and that that problem's likely to continue no matter who's in front of him. There seems to be this belief that a revamped offensive line is the solution, but Cousins (and every single QB) has shown that this is not the case because they all have managed to avoid pressure better than he has. If you strongly stick to the position that the O-Line is really the issue, then you need to explain why Cousins and every other QB don't get sacked as much.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 08-27-2015 at 12:23 PM..
Andrew Luck also does it better. I didn't bring up Manning to suggest that RG3 should be on his level. It was simply to point out how QBs make pre-snap protection adjustments and that taking a season ending hit is not always a foregone conclusion behind the Skins O-Line.
Joe Montana missed one game during his first three seasons. Manning didn't miss a single game until his 14th season in the NFL. RG3 has already missed 10 regular season games in his short career and couldn't even make it through the second week of pre-season without being concussed. I don't know how you think they are remotely comparable.
I didn't say everything is his fault. You should quote me saying that, and if you can't find it, you should admit you were wrong and/or exaggerating.
I said that I lay most of the blame for his sacks on him and that that problem's likely to continue no matter who's in front of him. There seems to be this belief that a revamped offensive line is the solution, but Cousins (and every single QB) has shown that this is not the case because they all have managed to avoid pressure better than he has. If you strongly stick to the position that the O-Line is really the issue, then you need to explain why Cousins and every other QB don't get sacked as much.
Why are you trying to start such a heated debate about RGIII? You come into our forum making accusations that Redskins fans have blind loyalty to RGIII, which BS. Then you want to start some stupid debate over who's more at fault, the offensive line or the quarterback? Then you want to compare RGIII with Hall of Fame quarterbacks. Let me let you in on a little secret: 'Skins fans don't care who the quarterback is. Bring back McFlabb for all I care. Put 60 year old Joe Theismann back in the lineup, I don't give a crap. As long as the Redskins win football games, I don't care if the freakin' waterboy is the quarterback.
Why are you trying to start such a heated debate about RGIII? You come into our forum making accusations that Redskins fans have blind loyalty to RGIII, which BS.
That's not what I said either. Remember when I asked you to quote me before since you evidently enjoy putting words into my mouth? I guess you didn't find that quote, huh? It's the same situation here.
I didn't say that "Redskins fans have blind loyalty to RG3." I said that Redskins' fans thinking about RG3 is clouded by the fact they gave up a lot to get him and his past glory. I think that's absolutely true. Based on his on-field performance alone, regardless of injury, nobody would be taking him seriously as a potential starting QB.
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