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Oh. You're a fundie. Kinda figured ... Well, your validity of independent thought goes right out the window with that.
There are people who think for themselves and have the cognitive tools to recognize the role for which they are best suited and then there are those who blindly follow a religious cant.
::flipping up collar and practicing my best James Dean sneer:: I'm just a rebel, baby, wotta you gonna do about it?
It also flies in the face of the long Christian tradition of hermitage, cenobitic life, and celibacy. Going back to John the Baptist all through Christian history there is the tradition of foregoing children in the service of the Christ. That tradition continues into the Modern period. I would highly recommend the Seven Story Mountain by Thomas Merton.
Within the Christian tradition, a monastic life way from all pleasures of the flesh has been held in high esteem. This of course precluded children. This was not just tolerated in was encouraged in the early churches. Antony of Egypt is regarded as the Father of Monasticism in the 4 th century CE. And we can hardly forget St Augustine, St Benedict, and St Francis of Assisi.
Having established that children are not necessary to live a Christian life we now need to deal with the married couple who are childfree. An initial examination of Genesis in a scholarly manner shows that children are a blessing not a command. The call to service can very much exceed the role of parent in a Christ Centered life. Here is a refutation of the article in the quote from: Is It All Right for a Married Couple to Choose to Remain Chil... | Kyria
The use of scripture to support active discrimination of the child free is anathema to Christian cannon, tradition and history. In another post scripture was used to say it's natural to want children. But as Christians, we are expected to rise above nature to the call of service like St Paul. We are expected to rise about our own history like Thomas Merton. And those who are child free whether it be by a call to service, altruism, the desire to not to inflict genetic pain, are following their call to the Creator God.
I'm childfree. Even with childfree folks there's a whole range of reactions to kids. Some don't like them at all, some don't want to have their own, but like other people's (e.g. childfree teachers). I fall into the mid range, I don't want my own, but if they're well behaved, I like them. In fact, it can be fun seeing things from their perspective and taking my younger relatives to movies, etc. geared for kids.
If they're badly behaved (and I'm not talking minor, age appropriate, occasional acting out), then I don't like them, but that's more about the parents not doing their job than the kids. Also, I don't like when parents insist on bring their kids to age inappropriate events (e.g. a late dinner at a nice restaurant, late showing of a movie, a non-kid oriented Broadway show, etc.) But that's more on the parents than the kids. The kids are usually bored anyway.
And the childfree aren't the only ones who can dislike or hate children. Sadly, some people feel this way, but because society is so geared towards pressuring people to breed, they have kids anyway. To me, those are the ones we really need to worry about because they are more likely to verbally and/or physically and/or sexually abuse children.
Which brings us to the point of thought vs. action. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone hating or disliking children as long as they're not acting on it inappropriately. For example, many of us have had an experience with a small child being unruly on a plane and the parents are making no serious effort to control the kid. It's ok to think to oneself that the kid is a brat and the parents should have been sterilized. It's not ok for me to stick my foot out and trip the kid or slap the kid.
Then there's the gray area. Personally, I believe it's ok to give a parent a dirty look when they're clearly doing nothing to control their kid's behavior which is influencing others. For example, I was on a plane with a kid LOUDLY (I couldn't even hear my ipod on my headphones properly over it) playing the same short episodes of a show again and again during a 3 hour or so flight. Someone near them politely asked the parents to have her use the headphones and the parents said she doesn't like headphones so they couldn't ask her to do that. I gave them a dirty look when they said that because I think not making kids respect that there are others we have to be considerate of as well is a recipe for raising a selfish, self centered brat.
Some people might feel the dirty look was too far, some people may think it's not far enough. My friend found himself in a similiar situation one flight. He was quite a few rows away and it was loud enough to be disruptive. He first asked the flight attendant to please take care of the situation. But she'd already tried and they weren't cooperating, so he went back and asked them to address the disruption to others. When they refused, he raised his voice and pointed out there were other people on the plane they needed to consider. The child probably hadn't been yelled at before as fear crept into the child's face and the headphones were quickly put into use. Several people surrounding this family thanked him for taking care of the situation.
Some people may have thought he went too far. But he was able to get cooperation that the flight attendant hadn't been able to. In the cases of loud dvd players without headphones, it's ok to think things about the situation. It's ok to politely ask that they use headphones or lower the volume (though even that can lead to conflict as some people don't like being asked to exercise courtesy). It's not ok to physically attack the family or destroy the dvd player/computers (though I know it's tempting, lol! Then there's the gray area of giving dirty looks and being more confrontational about it verbally. But all of these actions start with the thought of hating the disruption.
The thought in and of itself isn't really an issue or a problem. It's the action one takes following the thought which can be problematic. No one even knows that I hate the disruption if I merely think it. The glare might be socially uncomfortable, but I'm not going to get arrested or thrown off the plane for it. Speaking up politely should ideally be considered not a problem, but some people could get belligerent and it could lead to a confrontation which could get one kicked off the plane or possibly arrested. Same for a more verbally firm statement. And obviously getting physical means arrest and if the plane isn't in the air, getting kicked off it.
If the person who doesn't like children isn't acting on it inappropriately, it's quite possible for that person to be nice. The problem is there are entitled individuals who confuse being nice with being a doormat. And anyone who isn't a doormat isn't nice. For example, 2 outdoor concerts (I love music in the outdoors in nice weather) were signifcantly affected by parents who refused to discipline their kids. One was a daytime one and the kids kept trampling on and running by our blanket. I kept neutrally looking over at the parents, expecting them to do something about it. When I was a kid, my parents were very quick to correct us if we walked on someone else's blanket at the beach or park. After about the 4th time, I shot the parents a glare and they finally started correcting the kids saying some people didn't want to share in that hurt, superior entitled tone of voice. Which I implied I wasn't nice because I don't want my blanket repeatedly trampled on.
The second concert was in the evening, followed by fireworks. The kids a few blankets over were not only talking loudly, they were playing music on their cellphones which was making it hard to hear the music from the concert. I looked over neutrally a few times and then finally asked the parents to ask their kids to turn down the music so we could hear the concert. They got that offended look the entitled often do when asked to behave like civil human beings. I had to ask them again. I finally gave up on it because I was about ready to react inappropriately. If it hadn't been for the fact that my friends and I wanted to see the fireworks, I would have left. As we were all leaving the park, the brats nearly knocked over an elderly couple because their parents raised them to be self centered jerks. I don't know why one of the parents didn't just take them to another area of the park before the concert so they could enjoy their cellphone music without disrupting the others and then come back for the fireworks. It was clear they had no interest in the concert. An outdoor concert is a more causal and relaxed setting, but if people can't hear over competing music, that's really rude & out of line.
But on the other hand, when children have been well behaved and at age appropriate or interest appropriate events, I don't mind them and have even helped out parents when they needed it. I offer parents help with strollers on subway stairs, give up or switch seats on public transit so they can sit together. One of my fellow commuters had a tough child care situation a few summers back. Her sitter had to go into the hospital and it was only a few weeks before her fall arrangements kicked in, so she had to bring them into daycare at her work. They're well mannered and she is very good about making sure they're not disruptive. This happened to coincide with some road work which tested the patience of adults on the bus, let alone two little kids. One day, the younger one was being uncharacteristically fussy, so I did what I could to help out by making up stories about her favorite stuffed toy to entertain her.
So, I'm sure rude parents would say I'm not nice. But polite parents might have a different opinion
Last edited by nokids4me; 03-21-2010 at 03:02 PM..
I love children but I am glad I am not a child anymore for many reasons. (Okay I had a "bad" childhood, only in the sense that I didn't become responsible as a result, so I'm having to learn the "hard" way.)
I am not breeding stock for your religion. I am not going to create a child just because the Christian Industrial Complex needs more sheep to be shorn of their money, a larger pool of free labor, or more foot soldiers for the Army of Religious Imperialism.
I'm childfree. Even with childfree folks there's a whole range of reactions to kids. Some don't like them at all, some don't want to have their own, but like other people's (e.g. childfree teachers). I fall into the mid range, I don't want my own, but if they're well behaved, I like them. In fact, it can be fun seeing things from their perspective and taking my younger relatives to movies, etc. geared for kids.
If they're badly behaved (and I'm not talking minor, age appropriate, occasional acting out), then I don't like them, but that's more about the parents not doing their job than the kids. Also, I don't like when parents insist on bring their kids to age inappropriate events (e.g. a late dinner at a nice restaurant, late showing of a movie, a non-kid oriented Broadway show, etc.) But that's more on the parents than the kids. The kids are usually bored anyway.
And the childfree aren't the only ones who can dislike or hate children. Sadly, some people feel this way, but because society is so geared towards pressuring people to breed, they have kids anyway. To me, those are the ones we really need to worry about because they are more likely to verbally and/or physically and/or sexually abuse children.
Which brings us to the point of thought vs. action. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone hating or disliking children as long as they're not acting on it inappropriately. For example, many of us have had an experience with a small child being unruly on a plane and the parents are making no serious effort to control the kid. It's ok to think to oneself that the kid is a brat and the parents should have been sterilized. It's not ok for me to stick my foot out and trip the kid or slap the kid.
Then there's the gray area. Personally, I believe it's ok to give a parent a dirty look when they're clearly doing nothing to control their kid's behavior which is influencing others. For example, I was on a plane with a kid LOUDLY (I couldn't even hear my ipod on my headphones properly over it) playing the same short episodes of a show again and again during a 3 hour or so flight. Someone near them politely asked the parents to have her use the headphones and the parents said she doesn't like headphones so they couldn't ask her to do that. I gave them a dirty look when they said that because I think not making kids respect that there are others we have to be considerate of as well is a recipe for raising a selfish, self centered brat.
Some people might feel the dirty look was too far, some people may think it's not far enough. My friend found himself in a similiar situation one flight. He was quite a few rows away and it was loud enough to be disruptive. He first asked the flight attendant to please take care of the situation. But she'd already tried and they weren't cooperating, so he went back and asked them to address the disruption to others. When they refused, he raised his voice and pointed out there were other people on the plane they needed to consider. The child probably hadn't been yelled at before as fear crept into the child's face and the headphones were quickly put into use. Several people surrounding this family thanked him for taking care of the situation.
Some people may have thought he went too far. But he was able to get cooperation that the flight attendant hadn't been able to. In the cases of loud dvd players without headphones, it's ok to think things about the situation. It's ok to politely ask that they use headphones or lower the volume (though even that can lead to conflict as some people don't like being asked to exercise courtesy). It's not ok to physically attack the family or destroy the dvd player/computers (though I know it's tempting, lol! Then there's the gray area of giving dirty looks and being more confrontational about it verbally. But all of these actions start with the thought of hating the disruption.
The thought in and of itself isn't really an issue or a problem. It's the action one takes following the thought which can be problematic. No one even knows that I hate the disruption if I merely think it. The glare might be socially uncomfortable, but I'm not going to get arrested or thrown off the plane for it. Speaking up politely should ideally be considered not a problem, but some people could get belligerent and it could lead to a confrontation which could get one kicked off the plane or possibly arrested. Same for a more verbally firm statement. And obviously getting physical means arrest and if the plane isn't in the air, getting kicked off it.
If the person who doesn't like children isn't acting on it inappropriately, it's quite possible for that person to be nice. The problem is there are entitled individuals who confuse being nice with being a doormat. And anyone who isn't a doormat isn't nice. For example, 2 outdoor concerts (I love music in the outdoors in nice weather) were signifcantly affected by parents who refused to discipline their kids. One was a daytime one and the kids kept trampling on and running by our blanket. I kept neutrally looking over at the parents, expecting them to do something about it. When I was a kid, my parents were very quick to correct us if we walked on someone else's blanket at the beach or park. After about the 4th time, I shot the parents a glare and they finally started correcting the kids saying some people didn't want to share in that hurt, superior entitled tone of voice. Which I implied I wasn't nice because I don't want my blanket repeatedly trampled on.
The second concert was in the evening, followed by fireworks. The kids a few blankets over were not only talking loudly, they were playing music on their cellphones which was making it hard to hear the music from the concert. I looked over neutrally a few times and then finally asked the parents to ask their kids to turn down the music so we could hear the concert. They got that offended look the entitled often do when asked to behave like civil human beings. I had to ask them again. I finally gave up on it because I was about ready to react inappropriately. If it hadn't been for the fact that my friends and I wanted to see the fireworks, I would have left. As we were all leaving the park, the brats nearly knocked over an elderly couple because their parents raised them to be self centered jerks. I don't know why one of the parents didn't just take them to another area of the park before the concert so they could enjoy their cellphone music without disrupting the others and then come back for the fireworks. It was clear they had no interest in the concert. An outdoor concert is a more causal and relaxed setting, but if people can't hear over competing music, that's really rude & out of line.
But on the other hand, when children have been well behaved and at age appropriate or interest appropriate events, I don't mind them and have even helped out parents when they needed it. I offer parents help with strollers on subway stairs, give up or switch seats on public transit so they can sit together. One of my fellow commuters had a tough child care situation a few summers back. Her sitter had to go into the hospital and it was only a few weeks before her fall arrangements kicked in, so she had to bring them into daycare at her work. They're well mannered and she is very good about making sure they're not disruptive. This happened to coincide with some road work which tested the patience of adults on the bus, let alone two little kids. One day, the younger one was being uncharacteristically fussy, so I did what I could to help out by making up stories about her favorite stuffed toy to entertain her.
So, I'm sure rude parents would say I'm not nice. But polite parents might have a different opinion
This is the perfect summation of what I would have posted. So I'll just agree.
Dear Al,
Quit annoying people in My name. It's really screwing up My PR. And stop with the brown-nosing. I know you're only doing it to flatter your own ego, and it's not impressing Me.
Sincerely,
God
Last edited by Neoneo; 03-21-2010 at 07:01 PM..
Reason: clarity
I love kids, but I love other people's kids....I am the biggest kid and enjoy the things they do and say to make us laugh. However, I don't want any of my own. I'd love to have a family one day, but I wouldn't be miserable if I didn't. I guess it's just a matter of where we are in our lives. Some people don't want kids because they can be so expensive over a lifetime. I guess that's why some people (like my boyfriend) are huge animal lovers (which I am not)!
I don't want to have kids of my own but I don't mind being around children that are well behaved. In fact, I love children but hate taking care of them. That is why children are not for me.
Ditto
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Well, your validity of independent thought goes right out the window with that. 
Then there's the gray area of giving dirty looks and being more confrontational about it verbally. But all of these actions start with the thought of hating the disruption.
