If your not interested in God, then why are you so interested? (divorce, beliefs)
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Intrest in God is quite a movable scale with humans, and can be conditional at times. For example, when serious troubles come, intrest in God zooms in many personal lives. When deadly tradegy pounces the intrest in God explodes. Why is that? Well because deep within the human conscious people seem to think God could help, they just don't understand if he wants to help that perticular event.
But the human tendency to call on God for help is ingrained, I would say; its there because it was programmed to be there.
People don't call on science during these incredible moments of real self expression and revealed deep inner trust.
No atheists in a foxhole, eh? I would say, no sort-of-doubters in a foxhole, but beyond a certain point when you see that good, bad and indifferent outcomes are fairly random and have only a flaky, tenuous connection to one's personal efforts to do the right thing / be good / be fair, when you see that god answering "yes, no or not now" is absolutely the same thing as random happenstance, it beats this "ingrained" tendency right out of you.
Not that science is worthy of being called on, particularly, it does not reduce human suffering but merely moves it someplace else or delays it for the most part. Still, if in pain, I know that morphine will help at least temporarily, and calling on god is a complete waste of time.
I think it's fair, by the way, to label calling upon some higher power for assistance and comfort to be a human tendency, but so is our tendency to want to have sexual relations with each other, to scream and dance around when one's toe is smashed with a sledge hammer, to fear great heights, and to modify one's behavior so as to be accepted in the community. So what? None of these things "prove" god, they simply are human characteristics that we can observe. We don't say that all bats having big ears prove god, or that all water being wet proves god. These are just attributes of things.
One property of humans is a desire to explain things, to the point of attempting to render the inexplicable, explicable, inventing detail where detail is missing, seeking comfort in discomfiting situations, and connecting outcomes with actions. This is why we have a seemingly innate sense of fairness and justice ... if I live a good life and mind my own business then a diagnosis of fatal cancer "feels" wrong or "unfair" and I tend to want some Orchestrator to correct this mistake / grave injustice. So I invent one, who after all MUST be there, or else life does not make sense.
This is basically what you are constantly appealing to in your musings about god ... to you, time itself makes no sense unless god is behind it, so you say there would be no future without god. To you, consciousness makes no sense so you say that but for god, reality would never have "cracked open". To me, time and consciousness make perfect sense as emergent properties of the universe I find myself in. I do not jump to conclusions in order to claim to fully understand them, I just let these things be as they are. The possibility that a god or demigod is somehow in the mix is allowed for, but considered highly unlikely compared to other possible explanations; but I do not claim to explain anything where sufficient verifiable data cannot be obtained.
Your god, like all gods, is a god of the gaps in your own understanding. The difference between theists and atheists is basically how large those personal gaps are (whether you reject available knowledge on a particular topic because you don't find it pleasing) and, finally, how tolerant you are of the remaining actual gaps and whether you insist on filling them with some sort of placeholder.
Sometimes I think unbelievers simply don't find the normal placeholders comforting -- sometimes the very things that make theists feel all warm and fuzzy inside cause us very unpleasant cognitive dissonance because we are unable to suspend disbelief or take up a position without good reason to do so. I find most god concepts, including yours, Mickiel, to be delusions, but I am happy to let other people have their delusions / illusions if it's what they need to get through their day. Sometimes I even wish it were that simple for me. It'd come in handy sometimes. I'd feel less alienated and would probably be a more naturally cheerful person. If I could just ignore that fact that I was fooling myself.
My late 2nd wife (a theist to the end) was like that. She'd say, "I'll take a false sense of security if it's all I can get". Sometimes I wish I could do that. But I can't ... not and be true to myself. And once you get past the need to demand answers and explanations for everything, that life must be to your liking or your world flies apart ... once you can just sit with things as they are, and be content with whatever influence and power you actually have ... once you learn to live within your actual scope, it's actually far better.
So what? None of these things "prove" god, they simply are human characteristics that we can observe. We don't say that all bats having big ears prove god, or that all water being wet proves god. These are just attributes of things.
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They don't prove God to you, but they prove him to me. All you can do is speak for yourself, no more than I. They are definte proofs to me. Some things are Anthropic proofs; if you walk down a street a see a quarter on the ground, we can assujme it was dropped. If you further walk and see three quarters laying there, one can assume that another has a hole in their pocket. Yet if we further walk and see 100 quarters laying on the ground, but each perfectly balanced all on their edges, well we can rightly assume that this was " Deliberately done." One can view the Universe in this exact manner, it was obviously deliberately done and is thus Anthropic evidence and proof of God.
They don't prove God to you, but they prove him to me. All you can do is speak for yourself, no more than I. They are definte proofs to me. Some things are Anthropic proofs; if you walk down a street a see a quarter on the ground, we can assujme it was dropped. If you further walk and see three quarters laying there, one can assume that another has a hole in their pocket. Yet if we further walk and see 100 quarters laying on the ground, but each perfectly balanced all on their edges, well we can rightly assume that this was " Deliberately done." One can view the Universe in this exact manner, it was obviously deliberately done and is thus Anthropic evidence and proof of God.
I will at least give you credit for looking at the evidence and not claiming the existence of a god who gives a fig about us. I'm not sure how you handle the parts of the Bible that say he does very much care, but that's your problem.
When you look at the universe you have to factor in your own selection bias. Many people will say, the parameters upon which existence hinges are far too narrow, they are exactly what would be needed for life as we know it to exist, therefore they are intelligently designed for that purpose. I would simply say that this is the only universe which could have possibly given rise to me so that I would be here to observe it, this is evidence that I'm in a universe which is at least somewhat suited to my existence, not evidence that it was purpose-built for me. A sentient fish might observe that they are in water of a certain temperature and nutrient and oxygen content, and that slightly different circumstances would bring about their demise; but this is evidence only that ... you guessed it ... they are in water of a certain temperature and composition. You cannot draw conclusions beyond what the evidence provides, because there are many possible explanations. For our fish, god might have made the water, but they also might be in a man-made aquarium, or assuming still less, they might simply be in the only place they could possibly be and be alive and observe what they are observing.
Intrest in God is quite a movable scale with humans, and can be conditional at times. For example, when serious troubles come, intrest in God zooms in many personal lives. When deadly tradegy pounces the intrest in God explodes. Why is that?
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Fear makes people do completely irrational things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
This is misunderstood baloney, there are thousands of proofs of God, millions of proofs that anyone can see and figure out. It requires no imagination, God did come to earth when he had Eden created, and he walked in Eden on earth. The humans back then simply drifted away from God over the years, and thats exactly what occured, and it was not imagination. The bible advises us to " Prove all things", its just that many believers in God have been duped into thinking that God is not amoung those things that can be proven; they are incredibly wrong and live in error; and they spread that error.
There are millions of proven pressence of God, its just that the number of humans who see that proof, is not in the millions.
Absolute trash. And you even know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Nobody represents or knows God, including myself
If nobody knows your god, how are you so certain about so many things?
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Fear makes people do completely irrational things.
Absolute trash. And you even know it.
If nobody knows your god, how are you so certain about so many things?
I am certain about the Moon, because I can see it. I am certain about emotions because I can feel them. I am certain about some science because I can reason it out. mI am certain about some human history because of the archaeology. I am certain about God because I can see evidence of him, I can feel him, I can reason him out and I have seen and studied biblical Archaeology that defintely corresponds with a God.
If your not intrested in God, then please explain to me why you are so interested? Why? I am not interested in world war two studies. I don't vist their websites, don't read their books, don't post on their message boards; if your not intrested in God, then why do you do these things? Why do you daily debate what is not interesting to you?
If your not intrested in God, then please explain to me why you are so interested? Why? I am not interested in world war two studies. I don't vist their websites, don't read their books, don't post on their message boards; if your not intrested in God, then why do you do these things? Why do you daily debate what is not interesting to you?
You really are obsessed with this topic.
I can only answer for myself: I'm interested in existential questions, including religious ones. I'm interested in people. I'm interested in speaking the truth in the face of widespread untruth. I'm interested in helping people who are coming out of theism, in planting seeds of ideas for some who may do so in the future. I'm interested in sharing my personal experiences and opinions on a topic I know something about.
I don't profess disinterest in God. I profess disbelief, but that's an entirely different thing. I disbelieve in a lot of things that I nevertheless enjoy discussing -- or have a legitimate need to discuss. I don't believe the home I recently had built, should have been delivered with improperly prepped baseboards and trim. Nevertheless, you can rest assured I had a conversation with the builder about it, and he's compensating me for correcting his sloppy work, despite him believing, deep in his heart, that he did an adequate job ;-) I disbelieve in trickle-down economics, but the fact that I'll debate that issue with a political conservative does not in any way suggest that I secretly like the idea.
Have you ever got caught with your hand in the cookie jar? Both women and men have been caught stealing, lying or just being hypicritical about something. Remember how you tried to evade the issue of personal honesty about the situation? You were embarrassed and wanted to stick your head in the sand like the Ostrich. This is how many feel about their intrest in God; they really don't know how to handle it.
The kind of thing that won't leave your conscious alone. So you create " Adversions", like a fake fight against the thing that consumes your thoughts. Lust is simular to this; an often embarassing urge to be intrested in things that you would rather be private and in your closet.
Have you ever got caught with your hand in the cookie jar? Both women and men have been caught stealing, lying or just being hypicritical about something. Remember how you tried to evade the issue of personal honesty about the situation? You were embarrassed and wanted to stick your head in the sand like the Ostrich. This is how many feel about their intrest in God; they really don't know how to handle it.
The kind of thing that won't leave your conscious alone. So you create " Adversions", like a fake fight against the thing that consumes your thoughts. Lust is simular to this; an often embarassing urge to be intrested in things that you would rather be private and in your closet.
YOU created this thread. You must have some interest in atheism and how atheists think. Why is that?
YOU created this thread. You must have some interest in atheism and how atheists think. Why is that?
And I will continue to create threads; why am I intrested in Atheist?
Because they are proof of God. Atheist are stunning evidence of God; stirring proof that he exist; and good examples of how God deals with human nature and a good look at the results of Gods hands off approach.
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