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There is Zero respect in your post. Please don't pretend to be open minded. You just hate people who do not think like yourself.
I am beginning to think that the word hate has a different meaning amongst the religious people than it does for the non religious and the less religious. Not just you 5150 but amongst many who call themselves true Christians or Bible Believing Christians.
It would seem to me that god interfered in someones free will, no?
Yes indeed - but the point is not so much that it PROVES he exists. Thus, while it avoids debunking the claim that God cannot prove he exists as that would nullify the value of Gaith, it means by fefinition it cannot be proof.
But that doesn't matter. What matters is that it can be presented as proof in order to foo people into believing what they know is rue -on Faith. The rules of the game are 'anything is legitimate -if it just props up the faith.
So we get all sorts of the usual arguments and we say why they don't convince Then we get personal experiences and are supposed to accept the conclusions - never mind that the claimed experience cannot be checked -on trust.
Of course, we don't. It isn't valid evidence. So then the accusations start with Goldnrule weighing in on how this is evidence of how rude, hateful and nasty we are -which wouldn't make us incorrect even if it was fair comment.
And then personal declarations of Faith and being told we should should be ashamed of ourselves because we continue to doubt evidence that is not worth a light even if it can be called evidence at all.
We are not going to bullied into accepting these claims when we can't be persuaded by poor arguments. And the attempt to try to smear us out of disappointment will only rebound.
It's a very strange situation when those who dismiss hard evidence as unreliable because scientists can be mistaken, then present anecdotal experiences which nobody understands, yet, and expect us to take that as hard evidence. Then bash us when we don't.
It's a Catch 22 Situation! It does boggle the mind...but since a 'final' position (for better or for worse) has to be taken, one has to decide using his/her intelligence, a good sense of conviction, and honesty, whether or not presented Evidence is valid or not. Can presented Evidence be verified in an unambiguous manner? If it can't, why should one accept or be convinced by said Evidence? These are pertinent questions which partly determine what "position(s)/stance(s)" an individual takes on Atheism, Theism, Agnosticism and the like.
Both of you points are good. One point one, it could well have been clear that I was not doing well. My exerience in the field was long and excellent. It was a new agency. Wrong section. But the point of the dream was God telling me tomorrow I was going to be transferred. That was the powerful point. Perhaps God inspired the director to not fire me. But to transfer me. I retired from that agency with top evaluations a year and a half ago.
Point two does not prove anything. It just poses a big WHY? I've been around long enough to know this point is meant to suggest God either is not real or doesn't fit the way some people would run the universe. I have no answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15
It would seem to me that god interfered in someones free will, no?
Do yo agree mr5150 that jesus/god would have had to hearden one or more hearts in order for you to have your dream job all the way through retirement?
If not then it was all part of the grand plan and you praying for it wasn't necessary, right?
No. I missed that one. Iam giving that as an example of a story that seems to get used by a lot of people (the asshat (1) on the airliner was also used that way, by christian apologists too). I hasn't noted that you'd used it, too. I was referring to the job offer by telephone and remarking that I'd heard something very similar before.
(1) atheist, racist, sexist - whatever you needed.
Understood. But I am reminding you that the topic(really) is evidence for God-belief. I am also suggesting that you have a purpose in telling us your story - it is to persuade, using it as evidence. I have argued for years (here on the boards) that the 'Not arguing -just telling' subterfuge is inadmissible. Telling a story like that is making a claim and presenting evidence.
And you can take it as such if you want. I am doing no more than saying it isn't valid evidence for me, and saying why. Because of course we need to explain fully or be accused of closed mindedness.
And I am also not buying the bait and net ploy of a convincing Proof of the reality of God in a miracle story and the net of a general appeal to believe your faith claim and buy into it.
I am telling you that there is proof, and I outlined briefly in one sentence how to obtain it for yourself. What you do with that information is up to you. I have seen many people hit a brick wall over the years, stubborn to the end, be it cancer or some other life shattering occurrence and I'm telling you THAT is not the best time to be scrambling for help from the G-d you don't believe in. Had I not known Him and His Word and BELIEVED in His power to heal, I wouldn't be here talking to you now. Blessings to you...
IF God were to come down and manifest and blow up a city or two and then rebuild it and restore every one who was obliterated, people would follow Him out of fear and not of their own free will. That wouldn't be faith and that wouldn't be love.
A person's personal religious experiences are just that, their own. If they choose to share them with you then fine, people can share but they are special and personal and intimate to only that individual and only they can know the power and faith that it inspires. Maybe another person who is open minded can feel some of that and seek to know and hold God in their hearts on their own, but it is ultimately up to them to open their hearts and minds to the Word and allow Him in. Then, they are in a position to see how God can work in their lives through Faith, love and living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
To ask people to post undeniable proof in a text box on a chat forum is like asking for a youtube video of God blowing up a city, or something just as cheap and silly and isn't doing anybody any good. You get what you put in and everybody knows what your agenda is.
I think you can list the supernatural as one cause if you see fit. That is your right, and I do not dispute your right to believe this. But my point is that there are also a lot of natural things that could as easily have been the cause, and some people see no reason to run to the supernatural explanation when there are natural ones. Its just a different way of looking at things, and in my opinion, a healthier one. Your dream, which is the linchpin to your position, to most will simply mean you dreamt about what you stressed about during the day.
No, it doesnt prove anything, but it makes the point that I see little relevance in a claim that God is worried about you having a job you hate and supernaturally coming to your aid when there are millions and millions of horrible cases out there with Christians on their knees praying for help that never comes. Just like the claims of medical miracles never include things the body cant heal and normally does heal itself, like crushed or severed spines repaired, amputated limbs regrown, retarded people suddenly brought to normal intelligence, etc, etc. It is always the cases in which there are also normal and natural reasons for what happened that are touted as miracles. One zika baby suddenly being healed and receiving a normal size brain would remove all doubt of miracles happening, but there never is one.
I'm not really buying into the claim that God does the small miracles but cant seem to do the big ones for some reason, but this shouldnt call the small ones that have other explanations into question . It does.
But thank you for your civil reply. I have tried to make an honest observation from my end without rancor, and I hope you wont take my disagreement that way.
Really? Well, I've got two for ya. My right elbow was crushed, it had a bone fragment near the surface of the skin you could feel and it sounded like someone chewing on marbles from across the room if I bent it, afterwards. The nerve canal was crushed, and I lost use of my hand. I went to the 5 top specialists for hands/arms in my area, one of the them world renowned, and they could offer no hope. BUT G-D and His Word did. I had a dream (yes a dream) that I was posting a red poster board at work with all 5 doctor's diagnosis on it, and below them in large black letters read, "BY HIS STRIPES, I AM HEALED." That day, I found I WAS. It was smooth as silk again. I went back to the one world renowned specialist, and he even told the insurance company over the phone that he had no explanation for it other than the one I gave him, which was, G-D HEALED ME.
Next, I was hemorrhaging with what turned out to be stage 4 cancer and an 8 centimeter tumor which had spread into my other organs. G-d healed me without any medical intervention whatsoever. The difficult part was convincing the doctor who kept taking biopsies after the fact (3) that all came back negative, each time my response being, "Praise You Lord, I'm healed!" in his office. There's a little more "miracle" to the story than this, but you're not going to believe it anyway, so this is condensed. And I have others....Peace
Really? Well, I've got two for ya. My right elbow was crushed, it had a bone fragment near the surface of the skin you could feel and it sounded like someone chewing on marbles from across the room if I bent it, afterwards. The nerve canal was crushed, and I lost use of my hand. I went to the 5 top specialists for hands/arms in my area, one of the them world renowned, and they could offer no hope. BUT G-D and His Word did. I had a dream (yes a dream) that I was posting a red poster board at work with all 5 doctor's diagnosis on it, and below them in large black letters read, "BY HIS STRIPES, I AM HEALED." That day, I found I WAS. It was smooth as silk again. I went back to the one world renowned specialist, and he even told the insurance company over the phone that he had no explanation for it other than the one I gave him, which was, G-D HEALED ME.
Next, I was hemorrhaging with what turned out to be stage 4 cancer and an 8 centimeter tumor which had spread into my other organs. G-d healed me without any medical intervention whatsoever. The difficult part was convincing the doctor who kept taking biopsies after the fact (3) that all came back negative, each time my response being, "Praise You Lord, I'm healed!" in his office. There's a little more "miracle" to the story than this, but you're not going to believe it anyway, so this is condensed. And I have others....Peace
We have been down this road before. You admitted you cannot or will not offer medical proof of these claims. Somehow these things happened but not one of your doctors thought it noteworthy enough to enter the case in the medical journals. Everyone just shrugged their shoulders at multiple miraculous cures happening to you, and just went on their way without any curiousity about how a guy was miraculously healed multiple times.
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Decide Intelligently And Honestly!
It does boggle the mind
...but since a 'final' position (for better or for worse) has to be taken, one has to decide using his/her intelligence, a good sense of conviction, and honesty, whether or not presented Evidence is valid or not. Can presented Evidence be verified in an unambiguous manner? If it can't, why should one accept or be convinced by said Evidence? These are pertinent questions which partly determine what "position(s)/stance(s)" an individual takes on Atheism, Theism, Agnosticism and the like.
he woudln't be any nicer than he is in the Bible, but at least we'd know he was real.
